We’re talking pseudonyms this week. What the deal is with having a fake name, why clients are so obsessed with finding out our “real” name, what you should do if you discover someone’s private information, and some yuck experiences with people invading our privacy. Our misconception of the week is that everything sex workers say is a lie to make money, and our question of the week is about things we never thought we would enjoy but that we actually love!
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TRANSCRIPT:
Jenna Love 0:00
Welcome to somebody you love for the sale of two TVs. I'm Jenna love.
Holly Harte 0:07
And I'm Holly Harte.
Jenna Love 0:09
And we're experts in disappointing our parents breaching community guidelines and banging the people who vote against our rights. Before we get stuck into today's show, we would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we are recording, I am on the beautiful land of the Darug and Gundungurra gada peoples, and Holly is on the land of the nanowall people equally beautiful sovereignty was never ceded. And this always was and always will be Aboriginal land.
Holly Harte 0:39
We would also like to acknowledge that as whites as women, we are presented with a range of privileges in life, and obviously, within this industry, and we can't speak on behalf of workers who face discrimination and who are at the margins.
Jenna Love 0:54
So today, we are talking about pseudonyms. And I feel like this is arguably the only opportunity that I will get to throw a Shakespeare quote in. So you know, that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. So that's sort of, that's what we're talking about. Basically, whatever our names are, were just as sweet. So earlier this week, we posted some questions on Instagram about this topic, just to get a little bit of a vibe of what The Zeitgeist around it is. So questions we asked, were number one, why are clients so obsessed with finding out our real names? Number two, what should somebody do if they come across a sex workers real name? And number three? What are other examples of people using more than one name? So some answers to why a client's so obsessed with finding out our real names? Do you find that that is something that that is a prized concept for a lot of people?
Holly Harte 1:52
I think a lot of clients that I meet now try to really downplay it. I think they secretly are a little bit chuffed when they do No, or they think it's a little bit titillating. But they try. I think all of my clients try so hard to beat the best they can be. And so they really like no, you know, no, I don't I don't know anything about that. You know, they're really been, particularly in my brothel days, or stripper days or baby. Whoa, private days. I think that was something that I definitely experienced a lot. I think people yeah, we're definitely a lot more curious. What do you think?
Jenna Love 2:24
Yeah, you're right. I hadn't actually thought about that. But I agree that when I was working in a brothel, it was much more common that people Yeah, people wanted to know my real name. And yeah, when I was sort of, I don't want to sound like a Wangka. But when I was less well known, then there was more of an interest in it. Whereas I guess now people just accept that. I'm Jenna. But yeah, it's there's definitely a bit of an obsession there. So some of our Instagram answers are, I think that it makes them feel like they're special, or the real name will be key to our real selves, because they want to be the one the special one that we have shared it with. So they this person said they want validation that they are special, because if they weren't, then we wouldn't be telling them the real name. Somebody said, I think that they assume they're getting an exclusive bit of info about us. One sex worker said that they're hoping that we'll reward them with a freebie, which I think is a really interesting concept. Because if the idea is that if they find out our real name, that will be more generous. I mean, if anything, I would say the opposite is true. cut you off. You're gonna that's gonna make us run in the other direction. It's very uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah. And then we had a whole bunch of workers who responded saying that they are prepared with a fake real name. And somebody said that their contract as a stripper No, this person works in New Zealand so
Holly Harte 3:50
they I don't believe we have contracts here for strippers as far as I know. We do. Pretty much every club you have a big contract about and that was where we had at my club, you know that you can't sleep with patrons and that you can't grind on a customer's lap when you do a lap dance. You have to hover above it and it can't perform simulated sex acts. So yeah, that's that's a thing.
Jenna Love 4:09
But we just strip clubs are slightly more legit than brothels.
Holly Harte 4:13
Depends how you define legit. Because those contracts were well, there's something in writing that you exist. Yeah, they would they would not be legally binding. That's for sure.
Unknown Speaker 4:23
Fair enough. Yeah. Anyway, she
Holly Harte 4:26
said that her contract specifies suggests having a fake real name. We didn't have that in our contract when I was a dancer, but a lot of us did have fake real names, because the stripper names also tend to be more outlandish. You know, you've got like trouble and charisma and cinnamon
Unknown Speaker 4:41
formance. Yeah,
Holly Harte 4:41
so
Jenna Love 4:42
yeah. And I do I think that's very amusing. Those of us who have social media in our personal lives, it's pretty common practice to have that in a fake name. So it's always funny when clients think they've caught you out. And they're like, Oh, I found your name and you're like you Okay, you found the fake name that I put out there to be found. Congratulations like, and it's Yeah, I mean, that's kind of amusing. So I think that's something that's worth keeping in mind just because someone tells you their real name. I mean, who's to say what a real name is.
Holly Harte 5:17
And this is the thing, right? We're not the only people who have stage names, or who go by a different name, to what our legal name is, right? Obviously, there are a range of situations in life that you use different names, but particularly celebrities or performers, you know, in in drag, or, you know, with artists names and things like that. Or personas, a lot of even celebrities have, like several personas that they might perform as, and it's just super common. That's what you recognise them as, and that's who you relate to as an artist. Yeah. And
Jenna Love 5:55
I think even like celebrities is a big one. And I think that that's really commonly accepted as normal. And you know, there's a lot of like somebody's the example I was thinking of, for somebody like pink or Lady Gaga, like they're clearly stage names, and their legal names, or their real name, whatever, may not even be their legal names, I don't know. But that doesn't like that information is out there, it's very easy to come across that it's very easy to Google, what is their real name? But that doesn't mean what does that mean? I don't think there's the same obsession with needing to know that. Because of I look at Lady Gaga, I think of her as Lady Gaga, I don't need to think of her as I don't need to know her real name. And that doesn't give like it doesn't change who she is, that doesn't give me anything extra. And I'm happy to just know her as who she wants to be known by. And I think that's a I mean, I'm sure they they deal with many a stalker themselves. But I think that generally people are quite okay with that concept. But aside from celebrities, there's also so many people that go by names that are different to their real names. So we did ask this on Instagram. And some of the suggestions were people who have been married, so people who have changed their name, because they've they've gotten married and have taken on their partner's name. Anybody that's famous, basically, people who might want distance from their family, I know of a number of people who have changed their names so that they don't have the same name as a family member who has been abusive or something like that. Trans people, particularly if you know, their legal name, may actually be their dead name. And their chosen name is not what's written on the legal record yet, or maybe they're never going to bother changing it. People who are in witness protection, obviously, this person said, spies, I don't know how many spies there are still out amongst among us, but I guess that's the whole point, isn't it? They might be heaps of them. I don't know. Doctors, somebody said doctors. And I actually know tangentially of a doctor who uses their maiden name to practice because that was the name that they had established in the industry. And then they got married. And they did change their name, but they use a different name to practice on this. So that is a legit thing.
Holly Harte 8:09
I know that of lawyers as well. Oh, lawyers. Yeah, they've built their reputation. And they stick with that name. Yeah, for their career.
Jenna Love 8:15
Somebody said, My real name is not the one that I use every day, barely anyone knows my real name. One of my boyfriend's actually, is not known by his real name. And I didn't find out his real quote, unquote, or his legal name until like a good year into us dating, which, I don't know if that sounds strange to people, but no one calls him that, like his parents don't call him that, like, no one. Since birth isn't that's never been. He's never been called that. So it is what he was jokes that the only person who calls him that is the dude from the bank. Because that's just not like, he doesn't think of that as his niche. So he goes by his middle name, and he doesn't identify with what his legal name is. And I remember when I found out I was like, what, who is this person? And he was like, oh, yeah, that's actually my legal name. I was like, what? But, I mean, that didn't change anything for us. I didn't go Oh, my God, you've been lying to me like it. It just, it was like, okay, cool. You have a different basic, boring, white male name, like, okay, you know, it's just really not, not that big of a deal. And actually, my mom has sort of two names, and she didn't know her legal name until she was an adult. And when she went to, she went to like, the registry office to get a birth certificate when she was an adult. And they couldn't find anybody by her name that was born on her birthday. And she was like, No, I was definitely, I'm pretty sure I was born then. And in Sydney, you know, and they were like, you're not on the record. And she was like, Oh, that's interesting. And then they did some searching and they said, Oh, we do have a blah, blah. Born on that date, and her first name was actually her middle name. And so she had there was this entire name that she didn't know she had. Because her mom and dad were fighting and then her dad left. And it's all very complicated. But I yeah, I mean, she didn't even know her own name. So that to me that story. I remember hearing that when I was younger and being like, well, then who gives a shit? What your name is? Like, what does it mean, then?
Holly Harte 10:26
Yeah, I changed my legal name when I was 19. Purely because I wanted a more feminine name. That was it. I took all the paperwork, went to the registry, paid the money, and changed my legal name to something I thought was cute. So there you go. Is it expensive? That was about $119. I think if I remember right, so no, it's not really cheap. You want to do Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the only thing is you don't have to go and change your, you know, bank details on what you have to go into the offices to do it. Although these days, you know, what? What's that? 13 years ago that I did it these days, you probably just I mean, I didn't even meet anyone in person to get a mortgage. I just took photos all of my ID. So who knows? It's probably even easier today than it was. So yeah, a name? What's the name? Nothing.
Jenna Love 11:08
Yeah, yeah. And that's where I don't know where this obsession comes from. Because it doesn't really mean anything. You know, knowing what boring ass name my parents picked out for me. doesn't say anything about me. That doesn't show you the real me that doesn't. That doesn't do anything. So we somebody sent us a DM answering the question, because what they had to say was a bit more involved than the little Instagram thingies. And I feel I feel bad because I'm sorry that I'm about to shred you. But that is what I'm going to do. So I'm not going to shred you intentionally. But it might you might not enjoy this experience. Sorry. Sorry. Their message says personally, as somebody who has spent time with sex workers, as a customer, as a friend, and as a lover, I think it depends on the type of service being offered and the context. First of all, I would say, Well, if you're friends with a sex worker, or a lover of a sex worker, that's a completely different story. That's not a client, like, obviously, my husband knows my real name. He is the lover of a sex worker, he's not my client, like, the lines are really clear to me. So I don't really understand why there's a lack of clarity there. He says I can appreciate that sex workers need to establish boundaries that they feel comfortable with, which is something I completely respect. But which I mean, you respect it. But okay, that's always, always a bit of a warning sign. But if the type of service being offered is a sub dominant type of arrangement, that takes time to build based on Honesty and trust, then fundamentally, I think that sharing real names for both parties is important. And I will shit I have to disagree. Yeah, I don't I Yes, you need to build Honesty and trust. But you don't need to know someone's legal names do that. Not unless you're writing an actual like contract, like 50 Shades of Grey style, which don't, don't take any tips from that. So yeah, I don't see why. Why does that help to be like, Oh, good. Well, your name is Sarah. Okay. Well, now I can have a sub DOM relationship with you. But then he said apologies for the rant, which I mean, it was only two sentences. But apologies for the rant. But as you can probably tell, I've had some experiences both positive and negative with this question, the positive being either sharing real names upfront, or establishing this as a boundary to be respected. The negative experience being someone pretending that it was their real name, and then wanting to date and having to come clean and confess their actual name, which kind of destroyed the trust, we're built. Again, I call bullshit. As I said, one of my boyfriend's I've been with him for five and something years now. And a year into us dating, I found out that the name I knew him by wasn't his legal name. That didn't destroy the trust between us. I was just like, Hmm, cool. Good to know. And, you know, okay,
Holly Harte 14:06
I think if I were to end up dating a client, I mean that I met them as Holly. So the fact that later on, I tell them what my real name is, and that happens to be different to Holly, then that's expected. And if in the interim, I gave them a different real name until I knew I was not endangering myself or, you know, at some sort of risk of getting outed, because that's why we have a fake name, right? We don't have to go into this whole thing where the name is there as a means of protection and a range of other reasons as well. But ultimately, it often comes down to self preservation. And if you've determined eventually that you can trust someone, and then you tell them your real name, can you not understand that the reason somebody would have lied about it was not to deceive you or to mock you or to belittle you, but it was for their own safety. I feel like that is Yeah, and I'm sorry, this person feels like they were hard done by because of it or that their trust was broken. And that's A shitty feeling. But I feel like the priorities are a little bit messed up there. Yeah, definitely. I
Jenna Love 15:05
absolutely agree. I think you put that so well, like, it is awful to have your trust broken to feel that your trust has been broken. And I think that sorry, I don't want to invalidate that experience of that person, because that isn't very nice. But I just question whether the the combination of letters that signifies a person's name is really that big a deal, I guess. But you know what, before I started in the sex industry, I thought it was a bigger deal. And that has been a journey. For me. I think a big part of that has been that I say this all the time for the last few years. I get called Jenner so much more often than I get called my legal name. You know, my husband, my partners call me babe or whatever, they don't address me by my name. A lot of my friends just call me a nickname. Or they just say hey, like they don't you know, a lot of people in your personal life don't actually address you by your name. I call you Jennison or Jen hyzer or Jen, J. J Unit. Yet, Holly's just constantly making up nicknames, and all of my clients and a huge amount of my friends because I have a lot of friends in the sex industry. They all call me Jenna. So I, you know, when I'm in a public space, or whatever, I turned my head to Jenna quicker than I turned my head to my real name. And that I remember being really like, Oh, that's weird when I first noticed that experience. And yeah, at first, I was like, oh, what does that mean about my identity? And then I was like, it literally doesn't mean anything who like Who gives a shit? It just means I get called that name often. Okay, like, it's, it's really not a big deal. And I think that's something maybe a lot of people don't realise is that we call each other our work names to like Holly and I, we know each other's legal names, because we're obsessed with one another. But we call each other Holly and Jenna. And, you know, and she calls Mr. Love, Mr. Love, and he calls her Holly, and we like we all.
Holly Harte 17:07
Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's the same with most sex worker relationships. Like I think we were talking the other day about how we feel like a lot of clients might have this perception that we all use our real names with each other. But I've, most of my friends from the industry, we all use our sex worker names with each other. Not for any other reason, then that's because who we've identified as and that's just what we're familiar with. And you know, that's easy.
Jenna Love 17:31
That's who we know them as like, there's a handful of my closest friends I do know their real names for for a variety of reasons. And they don't you know, Holly looks like Holly to me. That's who I I'm looking at her right now on the Zoom call. And I like that's Holly. Her real name to me doesn't look like like, it doesn't look like x y Zed because I don't. I just you know, that's not who I've known you as,
Holly Harte 17:56
but I always don't fit. I always feel like I look like an Emily. Do you feel like I can see that? Yeah, my whole life. I've been like I'm in it so many times. I get ready to go Emily. Like it's just you just feel that how weird Yeah, I don't know. Sorry. Tangent there.
Jenna Love 18:11
What do I look like? Do I look like a Mandy? No, I got dubbed the two names given Amanda.
Holly Harte 18:19
Yeah, it's more like a little bit too posh for me. Well, the
Jenna Love 18:22
two names I've been I've been dubbed by other people who have given me six working names were Mandy and Poppy. Oh, I do not want IVF. I did not identify with either of those at all.
Holly Harte 18:33
Do like Amanda. I feel like Amanda is a powerful name.
Unknown Speaker 18:38
Okay. That's just because you're obsessed with Amanda Valentina.
Holly Harte 18:41
It's partly that. No, I just feel like a Mandisa is Yeah, but I do love Miss Valentina. Yes. So yeah, as you said, a lot of people in our lives, Noah says different names. And I, when I was a stripper was known as sky. And so everyone that I met during that time in my life, and then beyond that, when I started working behind the bar, and then when I was doing management, I just introduced myself as sky, it was just easier. And I still faced a lot of weird boundary pushing, or people tried to invade my privacy a little bit, even when I was not taking my clothes off anymore. So it was just more comfortable for me to leave as sky. And to this day, people that I know from that time in my life still call me Skype. They know my real name. They know me as Holly as well. They know me as a variety of things, but they instantly revert to Skype because that's who they know me as. And that's comfortable. And that's also comfortable. For me. I think it's really cute. It's actually really endearing and it just feels nice that they call me something that that I've chosen. That feels really sweet.
Jenna Love 19:43
Yeah. I met a friend of Holly's months ago, who calls her sky and at one point Holly had left to do something and this friend of hers and I were talking and she was calling a sky and I was calling a holly. And there was just no witness about it like we both knew exactly. We knew we were talking about the same person. But to her, she's Skye. And to me, she's Holly. And both of us also know her legal name. But she's not that to either of us. So, yeah, it just, it just works. It makes sense. And I think it's, I mean, how many people call their mates by nicknames? You know, that's really common. I think also, people might be surprised to learn that it feels because of the activist stuff I've done. There's been a handful of times where I've had to come across people, I knows legal names, because of like banking and government stuff. And it feels I can't tell you how violating it feels. Whenever I have come across seen someone's name. I'm like, Oh, I didn't need to know that. Like, I don't want to know their names.
Holly Harte 20:44
Right. So they haven't given it to you. It's that you've seen it somewhere in the in processes and your personal. Yeah,
Jenna Love 20:50
yeah. Yeah. Providing that exactly. They know it's there. And they know that I've access that information, basically. But it's not super direct, but it is, there's a there's consent there. But but it just I go oh, okay, oh, shit, I didn't want to know that information I don't need and I think that that's, that's really big in that sphere. Especially a lot of sex workers who do research will use different names, because academia has a lot of hor phobia in it. So there are people who will write articles under different names, who will also do their sex work, who will do their activism under different names. A lot of people don't want to connect, you know, I do everything as Jenner. And that's something that has a lot of potential negatives. And that's, that's a big decision to make.
Holly Harte 21:36
So a lot of a lot of the activists I work with, I know them by a name, that is not their legal name. And it's also not their work name. But it's the name that I know them as and their them. And there's no I don't know, I just, I just don't get the obsession, I just don't get why I need to know what's written on their birth certificate. And you also understand that that's a boundary that they've set, or some people set and that you don't want to violate that. And that's such a sign of respect to honour that as much as you possibly can, in the circumstances, a few of my clients know my real name. And a few of them will also know that I'm really, really protective of it. It's something that to me is like the final boundary, and I am really open with everything else. And I know you are to Jenna, in terms of my whole life, my clients know, like, there's not much I'm not honest about, or particularly raw about that happens, or that exists in my life. But my name is something that I just like to hold close to me. And I'm very protective of it. So when I give that to a client, it's intentional. And it's a gesture of trust, and it's a gesture of respect to them. But also, it's just a it's a sign of affection for me. And it's, if I haven't given it to you, it doesn't mean anything, it just means that it hasn't come up in it. You know, usually it's there's a reason it has come up in conversation with a client, it's been in a picture, I'm showing them or something and I go, Well, you go. And it's a gift to me, it's something I give them. And so when somebody takes up from me, or when they go looking for it, it's such a betrayal. When somebody goes to find things out about me that I have not given them consent to learn it. It's really painful, it actually hurts. And it makes me lose all trust, because they don't respect that boundary. It's not a big boundary. It's a name, as you said, it's a couple of letters. I don't think I'm asking much. So someone someone can't respect that. It's, it's sad.
Jenna Love 23:24
Yeah, as much as I say, it's not a big deal, just some letters. At the same time. If that boundary has been set, then it is a big fucking deal. It's simply like a respect that Yeah, yeah, I think I'm quite liberal when it comes to sharing my my given name. The reason for that is that if you had to, you know, if you had if you met a 33 year old white girl, and you had to guess her name, you'd probably guess my name. It's just really common doesn't give away anything about my identity. So I'm quite liberal with that. And quite a lot of my clients, I've either said it accidentally, or they've come across, whatever. But I'm much more protective about my surname. And a part of that is because I chose my surname because it's a name I took with marriage, which is weird, because I never ever, ever wanted to take the surname of a man. I was like, What the fuck why I'd never wanted to get married. I never wanted any of that. But then turns out my husband has a really awesome surname. And I was like, actually, I'll have that. Thank you. It was meant to be meant to be. Well, yeah. And it was something I was like, fuck yeah, I want that. So I'll take that. Thank you. So I do feel protective about that. But yeah, I am quite liberal. And quite a lot of my clients do know my name. What I find interesting, and it's, this is partly my fault, because I haven't, I don't usually explicitly explain it to them. But a handful of my clients, once they found out my real name, then they kind of insisted on calling me that. And as much as I'm not like, I don't want to be funny about it, but it makes me feel weird. I'm like, What? No, I'm Jenna. Like, ha, like, it just doesn't. I don't know it doesn't feel right. And it just and I know that they're not trying to, to push a boundary because I've given them that name. But I think that they think are we're connected on that level. And I'm like, I feel bad saying this, but it's just that I have a really common name. Like, it's not that we've we haven't connected on some special level I just in my kit, you know, for a lot of workers, it's a huge deal. But if they give you their name, or they might be giving you a fake name, who knows you and I could be those people that are giving out fake names, like, you know, who knows, unless, unless you've seen our birth certificates? Who knows? But I just I'm always like, ah, yeah, and actually, somebody's not that long ago, a client of mine. I told them my name. And I kind of remember how it came up. Often. It's because I'm like, telling some story. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, sorry, by the way, that's my name. And towards the end of the session, he went, Okay, Jenna, I've got I've got a bit of a dilemma now. And I was like, Oh, God, what? And I fully was like, oh, no, he's gonna tell me that he loves me. Thankfully, he did not. But instead, he went, you told me your name now. And it's I'm, I'm not sure what I should call you going forward. And I was like, ah, brilliant. I said, I rather you just call me Jenna. Actually, that's what I'm comfortable with. That's, you know? And he was like, Yep, cool. Great. And I thought that's perfect. Like, it's such a simple thing. But it makes me think of like pronouns, for instance, rather than going, Oh, I don't know what that person is. Who do they identify with? Just say, Hey, what are your preferred pronouns? You know, hey, what would you like me to call you? Brilliant, perfect solution. He probably hasn't thought twice about that. But I just thought that was excellent. And he's called me Jenna ever since. And that's great.
Holly Harte 26:38
Yeah, I love that I was only thinking the other day, I had a booking with a client, who I was thinking of it while they were talking to me. And I didn't say anything at the time. But they've known my real name for years. And they never failed to call me Holly. And that sort of says to me that they're always calling me Holly in their head, because they don't have to stop and think about it, that to them. I'm Holly, and they respect that. And that's just so natural to them. And it just feels really cool that, that they treasure what I've given them, and they are they're well aware of it. And I've showed them things with my name. And I've talked about my real name so many times, and they just respect my boundaries. And that's what it comes down to. They didn't necessarily ask, but I never said all what you should start calling me that now. Yeah, so it's really nice. I think, obviously, erring on the side of caution in that sort of situation is nice. So yeah, I appreciate it. And I expect that from any of my clients that I've told my real name to I'm Holly, I prefer that. And that's where I'm comfortable.
Jenna Love 27:35
Yeah. And I think there's maybe this idea that because it's a fake name, like it's not us, or whatever, but they're the names that we have chosen. And we, you know, we do have a connection with those names. And they do mean something to us. You know, it's not, we haven't just gone. Yeah, just call me Jenna, as a placeholder like that. That is, especially those of us who've been doing it a long time. That's who we are. And I think I don't know, I have seen this sort of move towards in the industry, there's been a few people that have sort of gone, I'm coming out as, as myself, I want to use my real first name as a sex worker. And you know, I want to be because I need to be authentic, I need to be true to myself. And like, that's cool. If that if that works for you. That's great. But I personally find that a bit of a concerning trend, particularly if there are people from the outside looking in and people thinking about getting started in the industry, and kind of going, Oh, well, maybe I could just use my real name. And anyone, can you, there's part of me that goes, I wish I kind of just use my real name since the beginning. But it's a very, very big thing to put yourself out there. As you know, a woman on the internet who gets naked to put your personal information out there, like that's a huge, huge choice. And even if it's just a first name like that is even as I said, I'm quite liberal with my first name, but I'm not putting it on the internet. You know, I will tell clients in person, but it's a very different story to sort of put it out there. And I frankly, I think it's marketing. And that's cool. That's great. You do you, but the idea of that using your legal first name, or the name your parents gave you makes for a more authentic experience with a client that it's just marketing. I don't think there's anything to that.
Holly Harte 29:18
Yeah, I think if it feels authentic to them, and that's something that makes them feel like their sex work experience is more enrich, then that's totally valid. And that's really cool. Because I guess that is what choosing a name, like part of it is is you choosing something that you that you sort of commit to or that you stand behind, it's your you know, your brand. And that's, you know, that's all well and good. But yeah, I suppose as you said, there are those considerations that you need to make, you know, for established workers for sure, who've been phased out for a while or who have family that they are that are aware of what they do and all those sorts of things. That's probably a more sensible way to go about it. But if you were just starting in the industry, I would I would definitely use caution in that situation.
Jenna Love 29:58
I mean, yeah, neither of us would ever Tell another worker what to do. But if it's somebody that's new and not sure, exercising caution is always a good way to go when it comes to your personal information. Because I mean, Holly and I have both had experiences where that has been violated. And, and we've been, you know, really put in harm's way. So we are coming from a place of experience. So the other question we asked on Instagram was, what do you do if you find out a provider's name in it, so not in the way that they've told you. But if you've, if you've come across them online, you see like a bit of a breach in their security, maybe you saw, they've left, I've had deliveries that have arrived. And then a client's, you know, arrived after the delivery. And I've been like, Oh, that's my name sitting on the ground shit. Like, you know, things happen.
Holly Harte 30:46
And can I just say quickly, if you arrive at a provider's place, and there's a parcel somewhere, just leave it? Don't? I know. I've noticed that. Yeah, I know, you think you're doing a really hard thing to pick it up and hand it to us. And a lot of clients try to do that. But it's incredibly uncomfortable. And it's just too easy to look at personal things on this, it please just let us know, pop in and say, Oh, I think I saw a parcel out there, let us you know, but don't look at it, leave it alone,
Jenna Love 31:12
especially because you don't know who they live with as well. Like, for me personally, when that happens. And it's possible for my husband, I feel so much worse. I'm like, Oh, you've just, he didn't consent to that. You've just looked at my husband's name. And he doesn't need to have anything to do with this. Like, oh, and yet they're trying to be polite, but it is so uncomfortable. Because you're just suddenly meeting this person. They're holding a box with your name on it, and you're just like, oh, fuck, can you just ignore it, please? So the question was, what should you do? If you come across this textbook, his real name, the answers were pretty much all the same. Nothing, pretend that they never saw it go about the rest of your day. Don't do anything. Don't tell anyone, even the sex worker unless there is a safety issue. Forget about it, pretend you didn't see it. Ignore that shit. Shut the fuck up. Ignore it like we do. You and your wife when we come across your Woolworths protect the person's privacy, mine their own damn business, DM the person and say to remove it, tell them where or how so that they can prevent it happening in future? And then forget it. And I think yeah, I mean, I think we would agree with all of those. Right? Basically, if
Holly Harte 32:21
you come across it, you didn't? Exactly that's, yeah, if you see it, you just glaze over it. And imagine you never did. And I've had I have had clients mentioned before that they've seen something somewhere and I'm like, Oh, good. Don't stress move on. And that's it. Yeah, that's not mentioned again. Because as you mentioned before, particularly with social media, I have a range of different fake names on different accounts. So I, my security is fine. I don't mind people letting me know. But generally, yeah, just keep keep moving. But yeah, if you do see something where you think, Oh, shit, this person might be vulnerable because of it. Or maybe they don't realise just how much of their public their personal information is public. You know, and particularly, if you are a client of theirs, it probably is a nice thing to let them know, not in an alarmist way. Don't call them 20 times, don't send them a message, calling them that name. Don't, you know, terrify the shit out of them? Just a quick message saying, Hey, I think I saw this account pop up on x y Zed or think I saw something somewhere that has you, you might need to adjust your privacy settings. That's it? Yeah, we need to do.
Jenna Love 33:25
Yeah, we've had quite a few messages actually from our patrons, because on the behind the scenes content of our shows that we put up on Patreon, I will refer to my husband by his first name. And so that often comes out. And again, it's a really basic white men name. But no offence, sorry, honey. But um, we had quite an early on, we had quite a number of patrons contact us and say, Oh, just so you know, in the last behind the scenes that you put up, you've actually said, you know his name, but you haven't blurred, you haven't baked out his name or whatever. And that was a conscious decision that we made. So but it was still really, I really appreciated that those people were looking out, not just for us, but for him as well. But you've also got to make sure that you are like a holy said, don't freak them out. Don't be dramatic about it. But also you want to be really polite and not to snarky, because I've received a few messages. On the one hand, I've received a few messages where they'd be like, Oh, X Y, Zed, and I'm like, Ah, yep, you found my fake Facebook girl right on you a fucking superhero. So that's just embarrassing for you. Because that, you know, they're kind of saying it as though they think they've got some dirt on me. And I'm like, No, you haven't. And on the flip side, you know, some of us do have gaps in our security, that actually can't be fixed. Mm hmm. And that's because the the society that we live in is really unsupported with privacy and stuff. And yeah, there are some gaps that can't be fixed. And I've also received some communication that's been like, um, you really want to look into you know, sorting out Security. And I'm like, Yeah, I've tried. I've contacted many lawyers, I've been like, I know. Like, I've trust me, a fucking tried. And maybe if you actually knew anything that you were talking about you, you might have an idea about how that actually can't be fixed. But thanks. Whereas if somebody politely had said, I'll just so you know that I'd be like, I'm aware, but thank you. But you know, being a dick about it, fuck off.
Holly Harte 35:26
Yeah, exactly. It's important to be sensitive with these sorts of things, because they can be quite confronting, and they can put people in really harmful situations. Another thing is, if you see somebody in the newspaper, or if you see somebody on TV, or in some sort of other setting that is not related to sex work or living their life, you didn't see it, and there's no need to message them and say, I saw you in the newspaper, because they can't fuckin undo that now. It's done. They're probably well aware of that. I think we don't need to explain this to most people. I think most people understand tact. But it's worth reminding that yeah, just Yeah, take it easy, definitely. So relevant situations that we've found ourselves in regarding our real name getting out there. I had a little pet sitting business about five years ago, that was a, you know, burgeoning thing that I did for a little while, I'd run it through an app. So at the time, there was these a variety of apps that you could do petsitting through. And I mentioned to one of my clients. And a few days later, he downloaded the app. He scrolled through it until he found me, which wouldn't have been easy because I wasn't in the same area as him because it was a location based thing. And he found my name, and he sort of mentioned it, and we're sort of laughing about it. And I was just so turned off. I can't even tell you how unholy it made me I was like Yuck, like, That's so rude. Yeah, I was pretty appalled. But I strongly considered cutting him off. I had a very stern word to him about it. I said, delete any record of it, pretend you didn't see it, and we'll move forward like it never happened. And he was lucky for that. Because it was
Jenna Love 37:02
really fun. God Yeah, angry. It's the effort coming across. And this is so I've had a few clients who have gone I had a client the other day, actually, who came across a friend of mines legal name, and was like, I'm telling you, because he didn't want to tell her because he was worried she would think he was creeping around looking for it or something. So I pass the information on. But coming across somebody legal information is one thing, downloading a fucking app and going searching for them. How do you not think maybe I need to turn myself into police as a protective future thing? Like how, like, something's wrong with you. Yeah, that's not okay.
Holly Harte 37:39
It's incredibly creepy. And I do feel really violated. I felt very sick. And so I went about changing things to make myself more comfortable. Anyway, to anyone out there who was thinking about stalking me on such apps. I don't use them anymore. I wound that business up a long time ago. So go away,
Unknown Speaker 37:56
because just so successful as
Holly Harte 37:58
a hookah is such a successful high class.
Unknown Speaker 38:01
Basically, Hi, class. Yeah. People like I thought, UI class, no. way with me,
Holly Harte 38:09
I have fucked up my marketing clearly. And the other one that really fucked me up and this was just so gross. Anyway, this individual is long banned from my my services, hey, we actually did a deal. And I love to do a deal. I love with my clients that have certain trades that are handy to me, or, you know, I had a baker who baked me cakes that he used to have in exchange for sex. I love that sort of shit. I think it's fun. So I had this client who detailed his car one day, and he did a beautiful job of it. And I was like, Oh, my car is disgusting. Can you please do it? We worked out an agreeable deal that we thought was fair. And I cleaned all of my stuff out of my car for my privacy sake. And obviously, I forgot something or something had fallen down between seats. So anyway, so he obviously found these documents. And when he returned the car to me, he made a point of the fact that he'd found them and that he'd read my real name and that now he knew it. And the tone was presumptive that like that. That was how he knew me now. And that was what he was going to call me. And he was like, So what do I what do I call you? And I was like, Well, no, you didn't see it. And I'm pretty appalled that you went to the effort to read it. Because if you say a piece of paper, and you feel like you probably shouldn't look at it, just start, just start, you know, I think it takes a concerted effort to open it up and to have a look at it and read the name and you know, commit that to memory. Yeah, so I was really uncomfortable for the rest of the day, and for a few days after. And then continuously, well, like an idiot, I continued to see the client and this was only one of many, many, many, many red flags. But he continued to say things to me for months, like also so when I send you this bunch of flowers, What name should I put on it? And I was like, Well, you've only you only know me by one name. Why would you ask you only know what his question what yeah, why are you asking this as a question? And he would go oh, I just don't know because I And that was just there was a lot of manipulation by this individual. That could be a whole episode, it would be so entertaining, too. I want to include that with him a little bit too much. Yeah, we don't want to give him any more attention. But anyway, absolutely, really unsettling and just betray, like, he knew that I was not comfortable with sharing my name with him yet. And I hadn't. And he took that from me, and it was really uncomfortable. But that was just one sign of many. Hmm,
Jenna Love 40:27
yeah, the example for me that springs to mind is somebody who I have a an abo out on, which is what we call a restraining order. And the restraining order is in my work name, which is something I'm very pleased to say was really easy to achieve. And I'm, I'm incredibly grateful to the policing system, and the court system for allowing that I'm not grateful for much else. But in my case with that, they were really wonderful. But this person has breached the restraining order a number of times, unfortunately, they've always done it in a way that there's no evidence of, so nothing can be done. But one of those times was that they they call me and left a voicemail, they called from a public phone box, though. So that's why there's no evidence of it. But in that, in that voicemail, they used my first legal name, in a vet, like in a very threatening voice, like, like, it sounded like a clip from a horror movie. And I just, you know, as I've already said, that I give out my first name quite freely, and it doesn't really having that doesn't really give you a one up on me. But the fact like it was clearly used as a threat. And it was, you know, he clearly felt like he had something on me. And then he had something that would scare me. And that's what really upset me. So it didn't scare me. But it made me really upset that he felt that it would, it was a really intentional, yeah, it was a real choice to hurt me. And that's what I think I don't know if some of these guys don't realise that that that can be what they're doing. When they're throwing our names at us that you're, you're hurting us. And it's really not nice. And it might be a fun little game to you, or what I don't know, whatever it is, and obsession, whatever. But I can tell you that the only outcome of finding out our real name, it will either be a neutral outcome or a negative outcome, it's not going to be positive, you're not going to be rewarded. We're not going to think you're extra fucking smart. We're just going to be really turned off and probably want nothing to do with you.
Holly Harte 42:38
If I found out that you've gone looking for my name, I will these days, I'm done. That's it. I used to ignore a lot more red flags, I think when I had various financial pressures on me, and this is, as we always speak about the benefits of privilege. And this is why it's even more frightening for workers who are at more of a disadvantage within the industry or who are less privileged than ourselves. Because I can say no, now I can say that you've crossed a boundary, you've made me incredibly uncomfortable. But there are people out there who by doing things like that you make them incredibly uncomfortable, and they may not feel like they can continue to turn down bookings. So that's just a horrible thought put someone in that position. And yeah, I think that's something worth considering.
Jenna Love 43:25
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Holly Harte 43:30
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Jenna Love 43:39
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Holly Harte 44:00
Yep. And I love how straightforward and easy it is to use and how much they clearly support the sex working community.
Jenna Love 44:05
And also how responsive they are when it comes to feedback and customer service.
Holly Harte 44:10
Check out their website assembly four.com for the word not the number for more info.
Holly Harte 44:22
This week, our misconception is everything that sex workers say to their clients is insincere and only to make money. What's your take? Yeah, I
Jenna Love 44:32
mean, I think this is really silly. So I think the idea is people go well, you can't say nasty things. Because then you won't get rebooked or whatever. And it's like Sure. I'm not gonna say nasty things. But there's a really big spectrum between saying nice things and nasty things. I can also just not say anything at all. And that's where like, you know, I have occasionally had clients put me on the spot, and they will say, Oh, do you like my penis? Or is it what is my penis normal? Or do you like me? Do you think I'm good embed? And in those occasions, oh my God, who like you cannot guarantee that what I'm saying is true or false. If you have put me on the spot like that with a really fucking intimate question, while you're paying me money, and we're both naked, I cannot guarantee you I'm going to be honest, that is crazy talk. Why are you asking me those questions? But if unprompted, I go, Fuck, I really enjoy having sex with you. Or I say, oh my goodness, that is a very nice penis. Or I say, Wow, I really love how you do this. Whatever. The why it doesn't. I don't need to say that. I can just say nothing at all. So that's always my role. If stuffs unprompted? I don't know. Maybe I'm naive when people unprompted. Give me compliments. I just assume it's legit. And I just take it on board. And I think you should too.
Holly Harte 45:47
I think that was beautifully said, I don't think I can add anything to that. I would agree entirely. I am incredibly honest, I'd say in most things. I am trying to think Have I ever sort of lied when I don't people often ask me things like, Do you know, is my penis weird? Or they don't sort of put me on the spot like that much. I don't. That's not
Unknown Speaker 46:08
fun. No. Like, it doesn't sound
Holly Harte 46:11
fun. But yeah, I do have clients that sort of say to me, Oh, you must say that to everyone about things that I say. And again, I'm like, Well, I literally just wouldn't say it. Like, if, if I like act like I'm pretty much obsessed with you, then I'm pretty much obsessed with you. That's legit. And if I am coming, then I'm coming. And if I'm not, then I'm not saying to you I'm not coming today. Like I just, I do I don't. And if I say yeah, we have awesome sex together, we probably do. So. And I feel like when we say these sorts of things, it can come across really pick me it can come across really like, I never liked it. I tell all my clients, they're great. But I don't. And what you get is what you get with me if I if I love it, I love it. And if I don't, I don't. And I try to make sure we both have a nice experience. And I try to always be polite and kind. But yeah, if I'm like straight up saying nice things to you, and I mean them. And please like the more you question it, the more I'm like, Well, can I say anything with that your believe? I
Unknown Speaker 47:08
don't know. Stop overthinking it. Yeah,
Holly Harte 47:11
I mean, I don't owe you compliments for our session, your session is for the services and time involved. And if I'm complimenting you, that's because I feel like it. Yeah, if I'm not having a great time, and I'm like, Oh, I don't really want this guy to come back. I'm not going to say, Oh, that was so good. Like I'm okay for money. Like I'm gonna get other bookings from other people. I really don't need to butter everyone up. That sounds so wonky, but I don't That's the truth.
Jenna Love 47:35
No, I was just about to say the same thing. Like there is perhaps an element of privilege at play here. Where, you know, somebody is a bit more in need of repeat clientele. Sure. Maybe they are going to butter them up more if they feel like that. You know, I mean, yeah, that that may well come into play. But then that comes back to that misconception that we are all desperate and that we will have sex with anyone who shows us some some cash, you know, and that's not not really the case. And we Yeah, I mean, I've had plenty of bookings that I haven't given out any compliments. Oh, yeah. There's there aren't any to give and uncomfortable. I can still give a good service. I'm still smiling. I'm still pleasant. I'm still putting the effort in. But I'm not. Yeah,
Holly Harte 48:22
exactly. wasn't wasn't a great session. And well, good luck. That's it.
Jenna Love 48:25
That's yeah. Our question of the week is Holly and Jenna, is there anything that you thought that you would never do? Or like when you were first starting out in the industry? That it turns out you actually love?
Holly Harte 48:40
Yeah, I've always been a quickie fan. Particularly when I worked in brothels. I hated when people would book an hour. I hated even more when they booked two or three, I feel like oh god, how am I gonna sit with someone for that long. But now I love it when my clients book 345 hours. It's awesome. I love it. I think, yeah, it gives me a greater chance to really connect and to hang out and have a laugh and not feel as frantic. I don't know what's changed for me my perception of time. Now an hour goes so fast. And I feel like it's barely enough time to get to know each other. It's fine. I still love our bookings. But I really, really, really genuinely do enjoy long bookings. Now, that's definitely changed. What about you, Jim?
Jenna Love 49:24
I will give my answer in a second. But I feel somewhat similarly. And I was just thinking, I wonder if an element of it is our our experience in the industry that we've been doing this a long time now. And I think we have the skills to entertain a stranger for a few hours. And I don't think I had that skill when I first started out. You know, that's something that I kind of learned on the job. And now I now I can back myself like I remember I remember the first time I had a longer booking that was sort of longer than an hour, an hour and a half. And it was a four hour booking. And I was like oh my god What am I going to do for four hours? How am I going to entertain someone for that long, you know, and now, I've got coming up in the new year a 48 hour booking and I have no fear about that. I don't feel like I, I know that I'm quite capable of managing that.
Holly Harte 50:18
I would agree. I think they experience Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Definitely.
Jenna Love 50:23
For me, the thing that I never thought I would do is touring. I never thought that I would enjoy touring, I didn't understand why you would do that. And there was a fair bit of demand before I had done it. And people often from Melbourne, everyone was like, come to Melbourne, when are you touring Melbourne? And I was like, what? Why would I do that? Why, like, why I can just do it here. Like, I'm not gonna know, I'm gonna have to pay for accommodation and flights. It's just gonna be a lot of like effort. I'll have to be away from home for a few days. Like it sounds terrible. And then through a kind of amusing set of circumstances, which I think I should go into in another episode. I ended up kind of having to go there and see a a particular client. So yeah, sorry to be very, very vague bookie about that. But that's that story. So I went to Melbourne I did my first tour. And I was like, fuck, mate. This is why you tour pretty much I just made a fuck tonne of money basically. That's, that's That's why people do it. And I really enjoyed it. I made bank and I enjoyed it and I was like, wow, now I totally get it. Obviously over the last few years my touring abilities have been quite limited and that has been quite upsetting and annoying, but it is what it is but yeah now I consider myself somebody who when I can read regularly to is and it's definitely not something I thought I would enjoy or want to do regularly it's that time of the week when we do a massive thank you to our patrons. So thank you. This week we have a new giving somebody and that is Carling are even more generous. Somebody is Timmy Andrew Adam Smith, Lachlan sub London, Miss Billy Nora Knightley, Lesley
Holly Harte 52:13
Scott Watson, Andrew, our secret admirer, Margaret Weezy. Ellen, Liam Fritzi, a tits, Catherine, Mr. E and Scott see, are extremely generous somebodies are Aaron, Andrew Pete. Amanda Valentina. Sienna, St. Breno, Adam Moore, John T. Nick, wombat, Harry, and Josh. Thanks so much for joining us this week. And please mind your own business. When it comes to our names. We are Jenna and Holly. And that's as much as you need to know. And that's probably a lot more than a lot of people get to know of us, we get to share some pretty special things with our clients under these personas. So that's yeah, let's let's value that. Yeah, yeah,
Jenna Love 53:02
brilliantly said Cool. Bye, everyone. Please look out for us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Patreon. Our name everywhere is somebody you pod as in podcast. Our Patreon started just $3 a month, and you can get all of our episodes ad free and a day early. Plus bonus episodes behind the scenes action that bloopers and more. Thank you for taking the time to listen to the voices of sex workers. And remember, somebody you love might just be a sex worker.