EPISODE 20 Just The Tips: how to be a better client Pt 2

Updated: Nov 28, 2021

This week we are talking etiquette for clients DURING a booking with a full service sex worker. Topics include: getting there, arriving early, arriving late, payment, hygiene, sexual health, giving pleasure, personal questions, and the end of the booking. In Part 3 we will talk about AFTER the booking and some other bits and pieces.


Scarlet Alliance Emergency Relief Fund: https://chuffed.org/project/sex-worker-support



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TRANSCRIPT:


Jenna Love 0:00

Welcome to somebody you love for the sale of two tidies. I'm Jenna love.


Holly Harte 0:07

And I'm Holly Harte.


Jenna Love 0:09

And we're experts in disappointing our parents breaching community guidelines and banging the people who vote against our rights.


Holly Harte 0:18

Today we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we are recording. Jenna is on Darug and Gundungurra land and I am recording on the land of the nanowall peoples.


Jenna Love 0:29

Hey, everyone, we have some announcements today. First of all, I am very proud to say we are finalists in the Best Sex and Relationships podcast category of the Australian podcasts awards 2021. Were super excited about that. And especially because I think the rules were you had to have six episodes out by a certain date. And that date was just after our sixth episode came out. So we only just scraped in in terms of eligibility. So we're really excited about that announcement. There is also a listeners Choice Award. So if you go to Australian podcast awards.com/vote You can select you can type in somebody's love and our name will come up as an option. And you can tell them that you love us. But that is obviously optional. We also


Holly Harte 1:18

want to let you know that after this episode, it will be the end of our first season, we will be wrapping up and taking a couple of weeks off just to catch our breath after what has been. I'm sure you will agree a wonderful first season jam packed full of excitement. We have plenty coming after the break. And we hope you come back and join us then.


Jenna Love 1:37

So Season Two will begin on November 25. And if you are missing us in that time, you are more than welcome to head over to our Patreon which is patreon.com/somebody. You pod. We have three bonus episodes on there currently. And soon there will be four so you can listen to those or you can even watch them if you're one of our 20 or $50 patrons. Quick trigger warning, we do discuss sexual assault in this episode. So for our final episode of season one, we are going to continue our Just The Tips series with some more tips for the clients of sex workers. As we said in part one, please keep in mind that all we can really do is give you advice on seeing us. I think that generally these tips are useful for anyone who is engaging in the sex industry. But they're definitely tailored towards those people who might be seeing independent Australian full service sex workers like Holly and I. In part one, we covered the initial contact and some of the stuff leading up to the booking. Today we're going to be discussing the booking itself. And then in part three, we'll be talking about after the booking and some other bits and pieces. We're going


Holly Harte 2:57

to kick off today with getting there, getting to the appointment getting to your providers, residents, all of the things involved with that,


Jenna Love 3:03

a really common source of frustration for sex workers who offer incalls, which is where the client comes to the worker, and particularly in states where incalls are illegal, or sex work in general is illegal is clients who don't follow the instructions to get to your location. I think this happens so so much. My theory is that it's mostly because of either nerves, or because the blood in the body at that time is directed slightly away from the head. That's my theory, because this happens to people I meet the client, I'm like, Wow, you're a really like well adjusted intelligent man. And yet you you could not follow the very, very, very basic instructions. So I think that there's a lot of nerves at play. There's perhaps overthinking brains getting in the way all that sort of stuff. And I you know, I'm really understanding of that. But the problem is, it can actually have quite serious negative consequences for sex workers, which can include being asked to leave the establishment, if they're staying in a hotel or a higher department space, it can mean having their lease broken, if they're renting, attracting attention from the neighbours, and often you know, all these things will happen with there being no refund either. So, a classic example is that most modern apartment buildings, for instance, will have like some kind of intercom system. So everything's really intense with security these days, right? And so generally, in order to be let up the elevator, you need to ring the intercom and have somebody in the apartment, press a button that allows you into the building and up the elevator to their room. And I mean great good security, it means that people can't just wander in off the street and go up to level 20 And go wandering around to people's houses. So what I always do is I send through instructions, just a short paragraph that says, you know, the the entrance is on this street, please press this number into the intercom, I will answer I'll let you in the front door, then you want to turn left and the elevators will be in front of you, then you press this button, you know, all that sort of stuff, when you step out of the elevator, turn right in my apartment will just be right there. I cannot tell you how many clients either sneak in the front door behind someone else, like you know, a resident of the apartment building or whatever is going in and they jump in behind them. Or maybe the front doors propped open. So they just walk in or they try to get in the front door some other way or they find a different door and get in. And then they go straight to the elevator, I then get a text message saying the elevator doesn't seem to be working. And I'm always like, what, how, what how do you know if the elevators working or not? You haven't rung the intercom yet. I haven't let you in the building. As far as I know, you're still outside. And I usually respond and say, Oh, but you haven't rung the intercom? And they go, Oh, no, no, I just snuck in behind someone. And I'm like, Okay, well, I can't let you up the elevator, if you don't ring the like, that's why I gave you the instructions to do that. And the awkward thing about all of that is the reception staff can see all of this happening. They watch this guy looking really nervous, he's probably got a cap and sunglasses on half the time because he's trying to be discreet, which ironically, makes you look like the shittiest fucking town. They see you looking at your phone and looking and trying to be trying to make sure no one sees you like you're some spy in a movie, getting into the elevator, trying to press the button a bunch of times it becoming apparent that that's not going to work then going back out personally and like, you know, they know what's going on. And the problem is, if you have that happen a number of times, they're going to start to put two and two together. And that actually puts us at risk. So as much as you're gonna feel like a bit of a knob. And we're gonna be forgiving of that. But you know, on top of the the embarrassment, there's also a side of it puts us in danger.


Holly Harte 7:09

I think the important thing is definitely to not loiter, because loitering is what catches people's eye, they go, oh, this person doesn't look like they should be here. And that stands out. So when you're given instructions to a sex workers, apartment, or house or whatever it is, they usually pretty clear, you know, people start to overthink it, they go, Well, you've toppled the building, but not which number but then what but then what and it's like, well, if we give you too much at once it over complicated and you stress out and something goes wrong. So often will give you as much as you need to begin the process. And then we'll say when you get here do this. And that helps. I do think it is a thing of nerves. I think people get excited, they've got a lot going on. People who've come to visit me before for booking will notice when I put them in the shower, because I've got like the one towel rail, my towel is also hanging up near it. And every time I put the client's towel on there, I will say to you about three or four times, as you're getting in the shower, I'll say this is your towel, just letting you know, reminding you the pebble towels, your towel, this one here, this is your towel. And I'll say it several times, not in a condescending way. But just because I know you're thinking you're excited, you're nervous here, it's all going on. And I know so many times it just slips from your head and you get out the shower and go off back, which tells me like it's pretty obvious because it's the one that feels fresh. Like I've used it. But let's This is a whole other topic of discussion. The The point being that I get that when you're nervous, you know, you get a little bit overwhelmed and things slip out of your head. But when we set clear text message saying these are the instructions to get to the place, just try to follow them as best you can. It really does help keep us safe and cause less stress. When I worked in a hotel, I would often say to the clients come straight into the lift, I worked in a hotel that didn't have swipes in the lift. So I would say just come up, come to the store and tap very lightly. And some of the clients would instead get onto the ground floor. And they'd stand in front of the reception desk, and they'd sort of wander around with their phone. And then they'd sort of go to the lift and come up to me. And that just looks really dodgy. It's the sense of purpose, sit in your car, read the text message again, get across it, and then walk straight in and do whatever it is that you've been asked to do. And we get it things happen. Sometimes you have a little ditty moment. And we all do it in life and we're not going to drag you over the coals for it, it's fine. But generally just just try to help us out a little bit working from home as I do in a residential property. And as Jenna often does when she's based at home, we also again, give our clients pretty clear instructions on what to do. I often suggest to park in a particular spot. And I've had clients then who get taxis who frequently pull up in front of my neighbor's house. And I say can you please stop doing that because it just draws a lot of attention. It's not that I don't think my neighbours know what I'm up to. It's not that I think that they'll care really in my circumstance. I'm very fortunate. I don't think it's a big deal. But it's not a comfortable thing if your neighbours are constantly seeing taxis pull up At the front of their house and go to that girl across the road, it just draws too much attention. So when you're giving instructions, and particularly then when I've said, Hey, in future, can you make sure that x y Zed that you just do that? But you know, we, as we always say, the people listening are probably not the people going to be doing that? Yeah, the people who do it are the ones I have to remind every single time. So yeah,


Jenna Love 10:20

exactly. I need to make a note on the towel thing, I find it so amusing. And it's very endearing, because I know it's just nerves and being overwhelmed and stuff. And I don't know if this is just you. And I imagine a lot of sex workers do this, the clients towels are always a different colour, because I find that I feel like that makes it easier for them. So when I'm working from home, I have like my towel is I have a couple of different like sets, but the bath mat, the hand towel, the face washer, and the towel will all be the one colour because that's that's all my stuff. And that's like hung up and it's been used because obviously I have a shower just before the client comes. So the towel is like wet. But the clients towel is like a grey, not fancy, but it's like a nice towel that's folded up neat and kind of prepared for them. And so I always say that's how there's for you in the basket. And that's the grey towel is for you and, and it surprises not crazy often. But how often I go in there and realise that they've used my towel and I don't mind them using my towel, except that they've stepped out of the shower, used a towel and gone she's given me a wet filthy. Like I feel really bad. I'm like I have this beautiful one that's been just been fresh out of the wash and fold it up for you. And you've just used my skanky old wet one that's been hanging there for a week. Like


Holly Harte 11:41

it's just so nervous. And that's why I'm always like, it makes such an eye prop. I think so many of them must think she think I'm an idiot. She just told me five times that that's my towel, but I'm like, I just know that you hit the wrong one that Yeah, exactly. I know. So many get out and they just freak out. And I know that they're standing there alone in that bathroom staring at these two towels going off.


Jenna Love 12:03

Yeah, and they're going do I put my clothes back on now my undies on? Do I put a towel around me? Do I just walk in there naked? Like I know that there's all these thoughts going through their mind at that time. The poor things. So generally, I would say like in life, usually it's kind of considered a faux pas to arrive somewhere late. But in the sex industry, the faux pas really is more around arriving early.


Holly Harte 12:29

I will give you the stink eye if you're early because I have everything timed to the minute and I am very organised with how I do that. Particularly like I have a certain amount of time allocated for doing my hair, my makeup getting the everything ready, trying to tidy the house. And if you arrive early, it throws me into disarray. Look, it's not the biggest deal but it just isn't very polite. And I actually prefer you arrived five minutes late than five minutes early. Sharp is preferred. But I really don't like early and I know people mean well when they do it. But I'm also like, well, you're gonna have to sit in your car and wait for five minutes. Sorry.


Jenna Love 13:05

Yeah, for me. It's a massive deal. My my instructions to get to my place always end with please don't arrive early with a smiley face. And I have had a couple of people comment and they go oh, okay, I won't be early. Oh, what's that about? And I think I hope it's not too harsh. I thought the smiley face you know, got rid of any ill will. But it Yeah, it's a massive problem. So there's a whole different reasons why arriving early can be an issue. One of them is that I often getting ready for bookings, I clean everything up. I do my hair and makeup. I lay out my like lingerie and then I jump in the shower, maybe 10 minutes before the booking 510 minutes before and I have a quick rinse so that when the client arrives I'm like super fresh. So if you arrive at my door while I'm in the shower, obviously that's a problem. Or if I'm just stepping out or just getting it like it's that's all a bit awkward. Also, in terms of lingerie, some of that stuff is tricky as fuck to put on. And I find it is so often the clients who've requested that I wear stockings and suspenders who will turn up early. And I don't know if y'all have ever tried to put stockings and suspenders on but it's a fucking nightmare. They are so fiddly and when you are stressed and all sweaty. It's a whole other level of nightmare. And the you know the doorbells wrong and I'm trying to do these little fiddly clips up around my bum and it's just such a thing. And I'm like, if you have specifically asked me to put on stockings and suspenders, you cannot be early. That is absolutely unacceptable. I can't make that work. I'm just not magical. But on a on a bigger kind of level, I guess issue is you don't know how long the sex worker is leaving in between clients, or in between their personal partners or friends leaving the place. So a lot of sex workers will leave, you know, maybe an hour in between bookings in which case that's a lot of leeway. Some will leave 10 or 15 minutes. So if you're arriving at their place, 10 minutes early, and the last guy overstayed by a few minutes, you're massively running the risk of you guys having like a real fun little interaction in the driveway, which, you know, not the end of the world. But I feel like most people aren't super into that. Just the other day, I had a client who arrived early, which I didn't realise. And then when he came in, he was like, Oh, I think I saw your husband. And I was like, Oh, that's nice. He was like, yeah, he was bringing the bins in and I was like, fuck, yep. Well, he was 10 minutes ago, bringing the bins in, you know, popped aside to bring them in Xin, and then jumped in his car to leave because he knew I had, you know, this booking happening. And it's not again, it's not the biggest deal. The client was like, you've got a very attractive husband. And I was like, That's lovely. But bits bit strange bit weird that you sat there in your car, watching him doing the bins bit weird. And like, I don't know, it's just all a bit awkward. Like, it's just a bit. So I think it's a it's a risky business rockin up early to a sex worker. I do not like I'm somebody I hate being late, right. And I usually arrive places early. I would suggest in that case, you know, driving around the corner. Or if you're in like a city area, or something, going into a cafe or something like that, sending a text that says, hey, I'm ready. But I'm waiting around the corner of my car, or I've just popped into blah blahs down the road. I'm totally happy to wait. But I can come in early. If that works for you. Yeah, like because you never know. Yeah, I think that's really useful. Like there have been times particularly for me, when I'm on tour, where I have gone. Actually, I am ready. And it would actually suit me better to bring this booking a little bit further forward, they'll have a little bit more time afterwards. That works well for me. So yeah, come on up. But just assuming just rockin up and being like, Hey, I think particularly in residential areas, because if there's some guy standing on my doorstep for 20 minutes, my neighbours are gonna know like, That's odd. And if that's the thing that's happening regularly, they're gonna think that's a bit weird. So yeah, especially because normally That dude is looking really nervous, and he keeps checking his phone, and it's just all very awkward.


Holly Harte 17:24

The other thing to keep in mind is that if you are arriving late for a booking, there is every chance that the provider will be ending your booking at the sheduled time. So if you've booked an hour, and you're 10 minutes late, you may only get 15 minutes of that booking as a result. And providers generally aren't doing that, to punish you or anything like that. It's just that we have strict schedules often that we're trying to fit in with. And we have already waited the 10 minutes of that time for you. So we're doing the best that we can, in my experience, most providers will do what they can to accommodate you. And particularly if you're a regular, once again, we get that things happen, and we've got that established rapport, then we can say we can work out, but that is dependent upon the situation and upon the provider. And then we come to my favourite part, the payment, the booking with most providers, you will be paying cash, that's what most sex workers prefer. There are some out there and it's an increasing number of workers who are requesting payment via electronic means they will give you the instructions for that and time for it to clear accordingly, we do prefer that you provide us with the exact cash, the expectation is that you will hand that cash over pretty much as soon as you arrive. Often, we will count the money almost immediately, especially in front of you just to make sure that there's not any discrepancies. Don't be offended. That's par for the course. Basically, it can be really awkward. If you leave the money, pop the client in the shower, go to count it and then realise it's not all there, then you have to call the client back and say, Oh, I'm sorry, there was something missing. And it just feels like maybe did you take some or maybe it's just a lot more of a clear situation if you count the money together. And you can both establish what is there, some workers prefer for you to leave the money in an envelope on a table. Some prefer that you hand it directly to them in their hands, they'll make it clear if they're particular about those sorts of things. If that sort of thing is important to the worker, they'll let you know. But otherwise, however you hand it over, just make sure you sorted out pretty much soon after you arrived because if we have to ask for it, it gets a bit awkward.


Jenna Love 19:25

I think a lot of clients often feel awkward about the money part of things. And they'll often sort of go oh, can I get this out of the way these days I have a lot of clients who just transfer the money in advance because they just don't want to have to deal with it in person, which that's absolutely fine in my case. But I also just don't think there's any need for it to be awkward. My my logic is always if you don't feel awkward when you hand over your card or the cash when you buy your groceries, then why do you feel awkward handing over your cash to me? You know, it's your you're paying for the service. And I think some people sort of say oh Just, you know, reminds me that it's transactional? And I'm like, well, it is it is. So I don't know what you like. I'm not sure what why you want it to not be because I mean, I, I guess I can understand maybe why you might want it to not be, but it is what it is. So you're here, that's what you've chosen to do. And that's what's happening, you are paying me. And well, I won't say I'm fucking you because that might not be happening. But chances are you're paying me and some kind of fuckery is happening. So we've covered this on the show a little bit before that, so many clients are really worried that we're not going to like the way that they look, you need to trust me when I say that we are far more concerned about how you will smell. I'm not. Yeah, okay, so Holly can smell but literally ever, not literally everyone else can, I shouldn't be so ableist, but most other people can. So most sex workers care about how you smell with Holly, do whatever you want. But for the rest of us, let me tell you that you need to smell good, or at least have an absence of smell. Now, you know if especially if you're if it's an incall, you're going to the provider, you may not be able to you might be coming straight from work, or you might be coming from a long drive or whatever. So if you're not able to arrive freshly washed, that's perfectly fine. Were totally cool with that. But in that case, what you need to do is make sure that you do it on arrival. So most providers will have things for you to use, they will have a shower, soap and or body wash, they will likely have mouthwash. A lot of us also have like disposable toothbrushes and what's called toothpaste. And even things like plastic combs and stuff that you can use that you can make use of to make yourself feel fresh and nice. Not always. But at the end of the day, most people are going to have soap at the very least and probably mouthwash as well. It is expected that you'll have a shower, at the start. And probably the end of your booking depending on if you're just going straight home. Like I think most people are fine with you not necessarily having a shower at the end. But it's pretty standard that people do. If you're having a booking with me, you are going to want to shower at the end because I'm going to come all over you and that's a mate. Well, occasionally, some people like to just kind of bake in it on their way home in the car or whatever. I don't know. That's your thing. That's cool. But anyway, so these showers but the the one the beginning and the end with in private work are generally considered to be included in the booking time. So I do understand that as a result of that you don't want to stand around in the shower, like having the most luxurious shower ever. When you're like well I am paying for this time. But at the same time, if you're in there for 20 seconds and you come back out, we're going to be like um, did you wash your ass though? So please, please wash your ass we covered this in what our first episode second episode.


Holly Harte 22:54

Yeah, I don't care if you smell bad as mentioned, I can't smell you. But I will know if you have a dirty but and that's super important to me. Wash your hands, scrub your fingernails wash your butt crack, get soap all over you. And that's massive and bitter mouthwash doesn't.


Jenna Love 23:11

I think everyone has different opinions when it comes to like cologne and perfumes and stuff like that. Personally, I'm quite sensitive. So unlikely smells do get up in my nose. So overwhelming colognes and stuff I find a little bit unpleasant personally. But more than that, my issue is when people have put cologne heavily on their body. I understand that you put on your neck, I guess but when someone gets out of the shower, and then I'm kissing their neck and I can taste cologne, which is not a nice taste like bugs. And I'm like we didn't really wash in the shower, did you? Because why is it still hate their low view? Why do you taste like death on your neck? And then occasionally, this is very rare, but sometimes men seem to put it on the downstairs bits. And then the D tastes like flyspray And I don't know what that's about and I don't like it and I would like to stop Thank


Holly Harte 24:07

you. One of my clients puts talcum powder down there. I don't know if he comes from 60s to Europe or something you know, and they they pounded their penis or something. And I'm like we clearly didn't wash it because it's talcum powder. Now that's the thing no people don't talk on their genitals sweat it's a thing


Jenna Love 24:25

100% of thing


Holly Harte 24:27

but not enough to not wash it off when you go and it's a nice topic talking your penis is weird. Sorry, cancel me. Cancel me everyone controversial statement on our final episode of the season to helping your genitals I get like you know you use like a little bit of a tap a little bit on there or like you that cream that used to be able to use it to prevent chafing and stuff cool


Jenna Love 24:48

like Yeah, yeah,


Holly Harte 24:50

but not like doubting I mean, I mean I've gone down there and it's like a like a judges week. It's like powder. It's crazy, like a like a bridge room. Flower.


Jenna Love 25:01

Yeah, as you said, if you're stepping out of the shower, and there's powder all over your deck, what first like,


Holly Harte 25:07

what do you do? What?


Jenna Love 25:09

If anything should be a paste? Shouldn't it be mixing flour and water like


Holly Harte 25:14

a pod? That's the one that then always pushes me for BBB J without paying extra. And I'm like, of all the CoCs I want to suck. It's not all pasty.


Jenna Love 25:28

I think a big question. Okay. So I know that this is a big question for some clients, because I know that Mr. Love has gone through this when he's gone to see sex workers. He's got a he's got a pretty good in, because he'll be like jet out what do I do? And I can obviously, give him some good guidance. So I like to think he is an A plus plus plus client. But one of the first things he said was, what do I do when I step out of the shower? Do I just walk back into the room completely naked? Because that feels quite, it can feel quite confronting to some people, it can feel kind of rude to just be like, here's my naked body. Do I put a towel around me? Do I put my clothes back on? I've had a number of guys say, am I supposed to put my clothes back on? I've had a number of guys put their clothes back on and or just put like their undies back on? And so it's a big question. I would say generally putting your clothes back on somewhat defeats the purpose of the shower. I would say if you're having a shower, because you're a bit damp. And then you put your damn clothes back on. That's maybe not your best move. I would also say that walking back into the room naked is not rude in this corner. Right? I know that if you're in a relationship, oh, you're dating? It might be weird, or Yeah, but but that's what we're here like, it's fine. It's what we're here for. I like it. I don't know about you. But my normal, general kind of way of doing things is to be fully clothed when someone arrives or when I arrived. And then while they're in the shower, I'll take off my clothing and just leave my underwear on. Because I feel like if they come out of the shower naked and I'm still fully dressed, I'm like, oh, sorry. Have one of one of us is very overdressed for this occasion. So I try to like bounce it out a bit. Do you do that? Or is that just me? No, I don't do that. I


Holly Harte 27:13

think no, no, I think a lot of people do that. I think I'm a little bit weird, in that. I don't expect them to come out fully naked. If I want to be a little bit careful saying that, because I think if you do, I'm definitely not going that's where I'm going. Yes. Let's get it on. I get excited. But I generally think you come in with the towel around you. And that's fine. Oh, wow.


Jenna Love 27:33

Yeah, I don't like that. Because then inevitably they drop it on the ground. And then at the end of the booking when they go to have another shower there tells all crumpled up and wet. And then I feel like I've got to offer them a new towel.


Holly Harte 27:44

Oh, that's fair as well. Yeah, I say that. So I usually keep my clothes on so that then they can have the experience of undressing me as they wish because I get a lot of clients who I start to get undressed and they go no, no, no, leave that on for a bit. Yeah. And it's sort of like that. So I give them that about if they're immediately like seeming really uncomfortable about their nudity, then I'll start getting some plays off.


Jenna Love 28:08

Get them off. Take it off. Yeah,


Holly Harte 28:10

I sort of go with with what I feel the client wants. Yeah, I'm crazy.


Jenna Love 28:13

But I would definitely say yeah, it at that point, I think the answer is it's whatever you're most comfortable with. Generally, I would say putting your clothes back on. A lot of providers might have an issue, not an issue with it, but they might just go Oh, okay. Yeah. But coming in naked coming in with a towel around your waist. Yeah, I would just say it's not weird. It's normal. And I understand that the situation itself is a is a bit unusual. But from our perspective, we're, we're very, very used to it. That's what we do every day. So it's not a big deal for us. In regards


Holly Harte 28:45

to sexual health, asking a provider, how long ago they were tested, or if they're clean? Or can you see their test results, all those sorts of things are really offensive, you'll find some providers will immediately cut you off and say they refuse to see you as a result. If you ask those sorts of questions. For a number of reasons, firstly, because you just seem like the sort of person we don't want to spend time with those sorts of questions. Although you might feel that they're totally valid, and they're fair questions. They are intrusive. They're also indicative of an underlying idea that sex workers are somehow disease. We've talked about this on other episodes. It just, it's just offensive. We're not asking you for your test results. We are using other ways to make healthy decisions when we're engaging in sexual activities as best we can. It also sometimes can flag that you may be wanting to engage in unsafe sex with us.


Jenna Love 29:37

Yeah, that's often My biggest concern. I'm like, Oh, why? Why would you want to know that? You know, if you're going to be using barrier methods of contraception with me, you're getting tested regularly. I'm getting tested regularly. And the fact that sex workers consistently have lower rates of STI transmission than the general public, then why are you wanting to see my test results or to know when I last got tested? Because the That makes me go, are you going to try something unsafe with me and put me in a position where I feel uncomfortable. And it also to me, it shows a serious lack of sexual health awareness. Because looking at someone's anonymous test results, because we're not going to give you our test results. Now legal name, obviously. So looking at someone's anonymous test results from a few weeks ago, does absolutely nothing. You might think that that gives you peace of mind, but it shouldn't. That should not give you peace of mind, because that doesn't mean a thing. I could have had bareback sex with 20 different men in the past, since I got those tests done. Like it just doesn't, it doesn't show you anything.


Holly Harte 30:38

Obviously, it's great to be aware of the risks that surround sex and trying to have safer sex, but they never will be entirely safe sex. There are ways to mitigate the risks involved in sexual activity. And we obviously employ those as much as we can in our work. And you I'm sure we'll know some ways that we do. But yes, sexual health test results are not very reliable in these circumstances. And particularly, as Jenna said, when they could be from weeks ago, and you don't know what activity somebody has had since. So they're not really reliable in this situation. We do take our sexual health and health in general very seriously. This is what our livelihood depends upon. If we have a sexual health issue, then we can't work and it causes us to lose income and we don't have sick pay. We don't have any of those fallbacks. So it's very important for us to take care of ourselves. And in general, sex workers tend to have a very high level of sexual health knowledge and resources available to us.


Jenna Love 31:37

I feel like I want to say now, like, the reason we're sharing this information is because we know that it isn't second nature to people who aren't sex workers. So I really don't want I know that neither Holly or I wants to come across as though as though we're going, you shouldn't do this, you should do this, but like, we're not trying to dictate anything. But we're trying to give our perspective so that you might have an understanding, you know, when people ask me how long ago I was last tested for STIs, or if they can see a list of my test results, I refuse to see them. And I know that they, you know, they might not realise why they may not know that the vast a really offensive question. And that's not their fault. You know, they, they, they aren't to know everything. But that's kind of the whole reason we're doing this podcast, and we're trying to get, you know, a bit more literacy around dealing with sex workers. In any context, whether you're a client, whether you are a non sex worker, a civilian, you know, a doctor, whatever. So yeah, don't take this as a list of do's and do nots, take it more as an insight into the way sex workers may interpret some of the things that you do and do not.


Holly Harte 32:50

Rather than asking your sex workout for their test results, or when they will ask tested, the best ways to look after your own sexual health are to use barrier protection, and get yourself tested regularly.


Jenna Love 33:06

COVID-19 has had a significant impact on the sex industry. And snap lock downs and travel restrictions mean that there are times when sex workers require emergency financial relief in order for them and their dependents to stay safe housed and fed.


Holly Harte 33:20

Sex workers don't get sick or holiday pay, and many have no savings to fall back on. The stigma and discrimination that we face means that some have no proof of earnings to access government support. And of course, migrant workers are often forgotten Scarlet Alliance


Jenna Love 33:33

and their state and territory member organisations joined together to create an ongoing fund that is hosted on the website chuffed that CHUF f ed.


Holly Harte 33:43

donations are tax deductible 100% of funds raised go directly to sex workers in need. And most weeks the amount of people apply outweigh the amount of funds raised and sadly, people have to be turned away. The link to this fund is in our show notes.


Jenna Love 34:03

I think we've we've talked about this a fair bit on the show before but a common frustration for a lot of sex workers is the client's really strong desire to give pleasure and to give orgasms or for the sex worker to orgasm in the session. Now we've talked before about how pleasure does not necessarily equal orgasm, and orgasms don't necessarily equal pleasure. So first of all, it's sort of a false barometer of whether the person you're with is having a good time. So it's a good thing that you want to ensure that the provider has an enjoyable time during your booking. That's that's good that I've said this before. Congratulations. You're officially not a psychopath. Excellent. But that being said, you know, sex is complicated. Bodies are complicated, and it just is never that straightforward. I'm saying this as somebody who can have an orgasm when the wind changes direction, you know, it's incredible. probably easy for me to come. But I've been with so many people for whom that is not the case. I have a large number of clients who sometimes orgasm in a session sometimes don't, some who likely almost never do. And, you know, I assume they keep coming back, they keep paying me money and, and spending time with me. So all I can do is assume that that means that they're having a nice time, I feel it's not my place to expect an orgasm from somebody that I'm intimate with. And I understand, like I fully understand the desire to give pleasure. And I think that it is really amplified when seeing a sex worker, because people are really concerned about whether we are doing this job by choice, whether we have been coerced, whether we really want to be there. All that sort of stuff is playing around in their mind. So I think a lot of people have a real, real neediness to make sure that the sex worker that they're seeing is having a good time. And yeah, like, that's great, you do want them to have a nice time. But expecting that that means that they'll have orgasms, I personally think is just asking too much. And Holly and I both are incredibly orgasmic women. So it's not that, you know, we're not even speaking kind of from personal experience. But it's just a lot too. You can't base your own value in bed, on whether other people are having orgasms when they're around you. I don't do that, you know, I'm literally a professional fucker. And there are people who aren't able to orgasm when I'm professionally fucking them.


Holly Harte 36:41

Are you thinking about asking your sex workers some really personal questions? Stop right there, we have some things to say to you. Obviously, we've discussed time and time again, about sex workers having their own physical boundaries. And obviously, we have some emotional ones as well. It's a real mixed bag in terms of how different sex workers feel about discussing their personal lives. Some don't wish to discuss anything personal about themselves. Some have aspects of their life that they don't wish to discuss. Maybe they have children or family or a job or something they don't want to talk about. So they will intentionally leave those things out of discussions. And then people like myself and Jenna will put everything out there on display pretty much everything in our lives for public consumption.


Jenna Love 37:30

Pretty much but we still everyone has boundaries. For instance, things like our legal names, you know, something? That's


Holly Harte 37:37

a huge one for me. Yes.


Jenna Love 37:39

Huge. Yeah. And it's not uncommon for clients to say, oh, what's your real name? Like, if I wanted you to know my real name, you would know my real name? Like, what do you think the point of me having a pseudonym is? If I'm just gonna not use it and use my real name instead? Like, obviously, there's a reason why I don't use my legal name. Whether you understand that or not, I don't care. But it's weird to ask for a different name. The other really, really common question that I get, I don't know if you get this as much or not let me know dying to find out tell ya. So common, and I cannot believe how common it is, from people in bookings and from people outside of bookings as well is, what's the worst thing that's ever happened to you? Yeah, I get that question. So often. And I just please don't ask anyone that ever don't ask anyone that question. For one. Especially don't ask that question. When you are naked and intimate with somebody that you met 10 minutes ago, and your dicks in them? Like just, it's not a good question. I think what really gets me about it, because I am a bit of an open book. And I am happy to share what has happened to me. And I always answered the question, honestly. And they are always taken aback every single time. They say, Oh, what's the worst thing that's ever happened to you? Or have you ever had something really bad happened to you? And I go, Oh, yeah, I guess being raped at work was the worst thing. Every time. They're like, Oh my God. And I'm like, well, that's, that's the that's the answer to the question you like, that's what you wanted to know, isn't it? You wanted to know if I've been raped or bashed? That's the question. You are like you're a hookah. So what have you had one of those things happen to you? I answered it how you expected it to be and you're gobsmacked and now I feel guilty for bringing the fucking conversation down. I've made it a sour mood. And I will not take responsibility for that because I have not. I have you have made it a sour mood. You've gone there. I've answered the question honestly. And now you're uncomfortable because you can't deal with the reality that it is what it is, and I'm a woman and chances are most of us have been sexually assaulted. Sorry, welcome. That's that's the facts.


Holly Harte 40:00

I don't get asked that very often at all. But sometimes clients that I've had as regulars for a very long time, it will come up in conversation as part of discussing our lives and maybe my journey in the industry and things like that. But I'm, I'm very lucky, I don't seem to get asked that a lot. Which is good. Because I feel like my response would be, I don't think that's really appropriate conversation. And anyone who spent time with me knows that I am so fucking nosy. So I always will ask clients really detailed questions, particularly when they're telling a story. And I want to know, clarification on things. But I'll always say, if this is crossing a boundary for you, or if you're not comfortable to discuss, just say to me, I don't really want to talk about that. And that's totally fine. And I don't often assert that myself, because I'm really happy, as you said, being an open book. That's cool. But that would be a thing that I think I would say, I think generally we don't


Jenna Love 40:55

need to talk about what to make, I don't understand why people ask that question. That's what gets me you either are asking that question, because you want me to say, No, nothing. I'm a happy hooker in my life is perfect. You don't need to have any guilt about any choices you've ever made. Or they're mining me for trauma porn, because they you know, and either way, I'm like, well, not none of those is appropriate. They either want to be assured, or they want to hear the deep and dark gross.


Holly Harte 41:22

I think at its core, you're correct. I think that people consciously just feel like they're curious about but when it comes down to what about it, then I guess you're right. And that's, that's pretty interesting.


Jenna Love 41:34

Never asked that of a police officer or a firefighter. I would never say, What's the most horrible experience you've had? I think that that is so because you know, it's bad. You know, it's bad.


Holly Harte 41:48

That's true. But I think that a lot of people, particularly people, like yourself and myself, that are very open about sex work, and about that we love it. And this is our career and all that sort of stuff. It may seem to people that we that we are the lucky ones that we're one of those were people who it's never happened to and so I suppose for a lot of them, they may think that we are on traumatising, that we have not been affected by these sorts of things, and it just might not have crossed their mind, which is, you know, then why would you ask, but I think if you don't think that anything Bad's happened, they might think the story's gonna be Oh, someone I didn't really like showed up and I told them to go away and, and that it's going to be quite harmless and funny and a little bit a little bit suspenseful, but not traumatic. And so, when they know that it's not just it's not a sex work, inherent thing, it's often just part of being a woman, that the amount of women you know, that have been sexually assaulted is much higher than you probably realise. But I can't name


Jenna Love 42:41

one who hasn't. Yeah, but that woman, you know, sure. Not all men. But yes, all women. Like, it's very good. Know that woman. So, when guys are like gobsmacked that I've been raped, I'm like, what they welcome. Yeah, okay. Like, not that it's, you know, sure. Not every single woman has been, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. And yeah, when it comes to asking them questions as well, I feel like it's important for clients to know that most of the time, we're just trying to make conversation. Like I've had a couple of times where I said, Ah, so what do you do for work? And I'm always like, I'm always happy for vague answers. I'm happy for people to see, you know, every time I go to camera, they go on a public servant. And if they say that I go, okay, cool. That means don't ask any more questions. You know, if somebody gives a really vague answer, I'm like radio that I want me to know. That's fine. But a couple of times, I've had people be like, oh, and I'm not trying to stalk you. And literally just trying to, you know, initiate conversation and make this a comfortable, safe space. Like, don't I? Yeah, I don't need to know your address. And yeah,


Holly Harte 43:45

I think when it comes to the public servants, it's probably just that their jobs are boring more than they don't want to know you. But, but yeah, I agree. I think Vegas fine. I don't know. I'm super nosy that I do like to know, like, do tell me all your details if you want to share I love that. But yeah, not if you're uncomfortable, then you can have boundaries as well. That's fine. You don't We don't owe me you know, any of your personal life details. That's


Jenna Love 44:06

fine. But also, some I've had occasionally people who don't want to give over any information. And then it's very difficult to talk. Yeah, it's very difficult to fill the silence. What am I talking about? I say, oh, so do you have a partner and they just go and I go, okay, sensitive subject. I go, you know, what do you do? What kind of area do you walk in? And they go, ah, um, and I'm like, oh, fuck, like, like, you know, when you don't know someone, you got to start somewhere.


Holly Harte 44:38

When it comes to the end of a booking, we both believe that it's the providers job to keep an eye on the time and to indicate when things are due to wrap up. I personally will let you know when it is time to leave. I'll do that by saying When would you like to jump in the shower, I'll stand at the door. I'll do all the things that sort of indicate to you that it's time to get moving. I'll jump in the shower myself. Things like that are usually a good idea that I'm saying it's time to leave. Or I'll straight up to say, All right, it's time for me to kick you out. I'm pretty open and honest about it. I don't like to have to tell you twice. That's pretty awkward. But if we are sitting there wrapped up in each other's arms, and we're still talking, and we're running a little bit over, I'm aware, that's my choice. If you need to be somewhere, let me know. That's just how I do things. That's not for everyone, by any means.


Jenna Love 45:23

Yeah, for me, like, if I don't have anything on immediately after the booking, and I'm really enjoying the conversation, then I might go a little bit over time on my own terms. And that's totally cool. Generally, for me, I'm not going to go overtime in terms of sexual stuff. But if I'm enjoying the chat, if I'm enjoying the cuddle, then usually I, you know, if I'm having a nice time, then I want to keep it going, as you said, like I do, if somebody has to go somewhere, then you're going to have to say sorry, I need to get going. Because I obviously don't want to like hold you up for no reason. But a lot of the time I do have other stuff on, you know, I have a number of things that I volunteer for. And I have other bookings. And I have family, it's not unusual for my husband to be waiting in his car around the corner busting to use the loo just waiting for my booking, it was supposed to finish at four and it's already 410. You know, and so I'm there going, Oh, God, My poor husband is you know, it's his house like. So both of us have been known to do that on occasion depending on what's going on and how we're feeling. But the reality is that, like, if you have booked a one hour appointment at one o'clock, then that appointment finishes at two o'clock. And realistically, your time is up at two. And so I'm the same as you Holly like, I will be like, Okay, did you want to grab a shower before you go, I'll stand up, I'll stand at the door, I'll start tidying up the sheets, like I just I'm giving cues. And I understand that not everybody is as comfortable or as proficient at reading social cues like that. But it is kind of difficult, particularly in such an intimate service for us to be like, Okay, leave now. Like it's hard to be like to direct for a lot of us. And know that I just have to be more direct, I guess. But I find it difficult. And I also feel like standing up and holding the door open is pretty fucking direct. And this ties back around to one of the first things we talked about, which is people turning up early, when there have been times when I've been on tour and the bugging was supposed to finish at four. It's 415. And the client is still putting on his second shoe. He started putting on his first shoe a good seven minutes ago. Like I don't know what happened between those two things. I'm running around trying to fix up my hair and makeup. I'm trying to I've got to put on my sheets in the wash. I've got to put new sheets on. And then I get a message. I'm here, because my next clients turned up 15 minutes early. And I'm like, Well, fuck, there goes the snack. I was gonna grab in between bookings guess I don't get dinner tonight. And I hope they don't have a weird encounter in the elevator when they sort of go, Jenna, Jenna, like, it's just ah,


Holly Harte 48:07

I definitely relate on the putting the shoes on thing. I don't know, if men have some sort of thing when it comes to


Jenna Love 48:14

shoes, and socks. They take forever to put socks on. Good morning, what are you doing?


Holly Harte 48:24

I've definitely had a lot of clients that seemed to take a long time to get dressed. And I'm definitely not rushing you. Often. In my case, I'm not in a rush, because I'm not touring and things like that. I'm pretty casual with that. But I am like, wow, it just take you a very long time to put on four items of clothing. Generally, my clients are pretty in tune with what I'm indicating. And as I said, if I'm hanging on to you and engrossed in the conversation, then you can probably assume that I'm pretty comfortable with the conversation continuing for a little bit longer. But if I'm getting up moving things around and saying, Okay, well, then that's probably time to get moving. I think in terms of getting people to leave. The most frustrating thing for me, is when people are actually finally getting dressed and moving, and it's all good. And I have a little bit of conversation with them while they're doing that. And they keep stopping getting dressed or stopping leaving to have the conversation. And like obviously, I love talking to you. But I really want you to start to get moving by that point. So please just keep getting dressed. And


Jenna Love 49:27

yeah, because you don't want to just be in silence while they're getting dressed. Right? So you try and sort of fill this or you might say, Oh, what are you doing after this? Or just that's kind of, you know, fill a chat. And then they stop and then they tell you what they're doing afterwards. And you're like, that's lovely, but I wasn't really asking what you're doing. Like the priority right now is the shoe laces. And and if you happen to tell me about the rest of your weekend, then cool but but let's just focus on the shoe laces.


Holly Harte 49:54

Sometimes I feel like a parent chasing a child. I sort of feel like I have to go come on back with the shoes get the shoes on. But I don't want to feel like that. And this is their massive exception to the rule. As always, the majority of my clients are wonderful and they're doing the right thing. But there's just a couple where I'm like you did you forget don't sit down again. Don't sit down I keep getting ready


Jenna Love 50:24

so that brings us to the end of this episode and also to the end of season one of somebody you love. Thank you so much for being here with us on this journey thus far. If you are hanging out and over the next couple of weeks, you are desperate to listen to more of us talking shit, then you should join our Patreon speaking of we have some wonderful patrons that we would like to thank today


Holly Harte 50:51

thank you to our new generous somebody Lulu


Jenna Love 50:55

are even more generous somebodies a Timmy Andrew Adam Smith, Leo Laughlin, sub London Miss Billy Nora Knightley, Lesley Scott Watson, Andrew, big M. Our secret admirer Maji, Margaret Weezy, John T. Celeste, Ellen, Liam and Fritz Shia tits


Holly Harte 51:19

are extremely generous somebodies are Aaron Samuel, Andrew Pete. Theodore Betts, the first Esquire, Amanda Valentina Sienna, St. Breno, add a more and Nick.


Jenna Love 51:34

We also now have the option for annual memberships on Patreon, which gives you a 10% discount so you get like a month and a bit free. So that might be an option if you want to save on regular transaction fees. And also just if you're, if you're a bit of a somebody you love lifer, thanks for


Holly Harte 51:53

your amazing support this season. We have been so overwhelmed by how wonderful you've all been, and we're very grateful. Thank you. See you


Jenna Love 52:01

in season two.


Unknown Speaker 52:05

Please look out


Jenna Love 52:06

for us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Patreon. Our name everywhere is somebody you pod as in podcast. Our Patreon started just $3 a month, and you can get all of our episodes ad free and a day early. Plus bonus episodes behind the scenes action, bloopers and more. Thank you for taking the time to listen to the voices of sex workers. And remember, somebody you love might just be a sex worker.



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