Introducing… Just The Tips! A new kind of episode where we focus on giving out pointers to our listeners. So we are starting with tips for clients of sex workers. In part 1, we’re talking about all the stuff BEFORE the booking: screening, making the initial contact, how much you should tell us about yourself, and paying deposits. Next time we will be discussing the booking itself.
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NT (SWOP NT): https://www.ntahc.org.au/swopnt
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SA (SIN): http://www.sin.org.au/sindex.html
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Vic (Vixen Collective): https://www.vixencollective.org/vc
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Jenna Love 0:01
Do you miss the free and affordable ads and social networks without all of the anti sex rhetoric.
Holly Harte 0:06
Assembly Four is a team of sex workers and technologists from Melbourne, Australia, aiming to bring back free and fair advertising and social spaces to the sex working community.
Jenna Love 0:15
stepping away from the clunky design of traditional platforms, their two products twist dot link and Switter.at dot at refreshing and well needed changes in both presentation and mission.
Holly Harte 0:26
And both are free to join and open to all.
Jenna Love 0:29
You can find both of our profiles on twist and I love how it is so clearly designed by sex workers.
Holly Harte 0:36
Yep, and I love how straightforward and easy it is to use and how much they clearly support the sex working community.
Jenna Love 0:41
And also how responsive they are when it comes to feedback and customer service.
Holly Harte 0:46
Check out their website Assembly four.com for the word, not the number for more info.
Jenna Love 0:56
Welcome to Somebody You Love for the sale of two titties. I'm Jenna Love.
Holly Harte 1:03
And I'm Holly Harte.
Jenna Love 1:05
And we're experts in disappointing our parents breaching community guidelines and banging the people who vote against our rights. We'd like to start out today by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land from which we are recording. Those are the Darug and Gundungurra peoples in my case and the nanowall people in Holly's case, we pay our respects to any elders past and present. And we acknowledge that sovereignty was never seated.
Holly Harte 1:34
This week, we were planning to interview the gorgeous Ruby Valentine. Unfortunately, due to a comedy of technical issues, we had to postpone that episode. Until next week. In the meantime, Jenna came up with a wonderful idea called just the tips, we're going to basically give you a little bit of an insider information into what makes a good client obviously, the tips that we're giving today are totally based on our own opinions, our own experiences. Also geographically, they may be very different. If you're seeing workers from other regions, other cities, other countries, the expectations may be very different in the way that things are done. So this is really just relevant to clients who are planning to see us I guess, but also probably generally, you know, there is some practicality and the advice for Australian clients in general.
Jenna Love 2:21
Another important thing to keep in mind is the laws that vary so much across Australia and across the world. So the advice that we have to share applies to particularly to seeing private, full service sex workers in Australia. But you know, if you're seeing different types of sex workers, and you're in somewhere else in the world, depending on both the laws, and just the way sex work is viewed in that society and the kind of way things are done, you need to take what we say with a grain of salt. But hopefully this is a good starting point for engaging with the industry. So I wrote up an etiquette guide for clients on my website A while ago. And that's kind of what we're using as the basis as the starting point for this episode. And I was quite hesitant to put it together because I don't like telling people what to do. And I'm not a huge fan of the concept of like etiquette, polite society, I've always hated the idea that for some reason, I can't put my elbows on the table when I'm eating, like I just think it's stupid. But at the same time, I had noticed that I'd come across a lot of instances of clients, doing things that are considered kind of rude or putting their foot in it, without realising it and just having absolutely no idea because I think there's a whole set of kind of expectations that we have as sex workers and, and a bunch of unspoken rules. And there's not really any way for a client to know that unless they're told. And so it can lead to these situations where a sex workers getting annoyed at the client, the client is getting annoyed because they're going Why is this extra being so rude to me, but they're only being rude because of a perceived rudeness from the client. But anyway, if you don't have the conversation, then you've got no way of knowing. So I put this guide up on my website, and it has been received quite well. So hopefully it is useful. And I think I just want to make it clear that any of this kind of advice like you don't have to take on board what we say. And in the past. I've seen you know discourse on Twitter, for instance, where sex workers have said, this is how things are supposed to be. And there's been some clients of workers who have gotten upset and sort of said, Well, I don't want to do it that way. And that's cool. Like you don't have to do it the way we're suggesting. But what we're saying is this is probably going to give you the best chance of positive experiences. So if you don't want to go along with this, you keep doing your thing. But then you kind of can't be surprised if you don't have great experiences.
Holly Harte 4:46
I think it's also an awesome opportunity for people who maybe have contacted sex workers in the past and had moments of interaction where they've been confused of whether they have done something wrong or not sure why something didn't work out. Maybe this sort of discussion can help give Little bit of insight into the perceived expectations of the sex worker or, or the the perceived offences that have been committed by a client when they may not have even realised there were those boundaries in the first place.
Jenna Love 5:11
I was talking to you the other day about how I think so many of these come down to the idea of sex work is work. Like a lot of the issues are when clients think that we're dating. And so they do the things that are considered polite in the dating world. And they don't understand why we have a problem with that, because we're viewing this like a business. And they're viewing it like we're dating. It's like the shit people say that we had a couple of weeks ago, where I had a client who thought it was really impolite to send a booking inquiry as the initial contact. And he thought the most polite thing was to send a message that just said, Hi, because in his view, you had to get to know someone before you started talking about the sex. And it was like we were courting. And I tried to explain that, from our perspective, he was really wasting our time treating it like we were dating, when it's just a business and knew, you know, you wouldn't contact your dentist, and find out their life story before getting to the point of actually making a booking.
Holly Harte 6:12
Yeah, in the sex industry, we actually prefer the opposite. We prefer for you to come to us quite formally, in the first instance, give us all the information we need, and make a booking in a really sort of detached, but efficient way. We like it to be as quick and as drama free as possible. And then after down the track once we start to get to know you as a client, a lot of those formalities can be lessened and can be relaxed, and we can start to interact in a more casual way. Yeah, there's
Jenna Love 6:39
this tweet I came across the other day from as may Laurent, I'm not sure if that's her name. Allah wrong. Oh, sorry. Well, I checked and she's in the US, so I didn't realise that. Okay, maybe I'm just being a wanker here. But no, that's fine. She said one thing suitors should know, my clients all say that I'm very sweet, warm and inviting in person. But during the booking process, I'm very Matter of fact, hundreds of men try to see me every month I cannot pour from an empty cup. I reserved my warmth for gents who put in effort. And this is something that I've seen before I've seen you know, clients be upset that the booking process is businesslike and is professional and isn't. I mean, it's probably different with Holly actually, because you're very like kiss kissing, very, like lovely,
Holly Harte 7:31
slightly flirty, but I certainly won't engage much conversation I won't engage much detail. I'm pretty Matter of fact, because I'm not gonna wait as I said, I'm not gonna waste my time when I don't even know if you're going to come through with a booking, the amount of contact that we receive a sex workers that doesn't lead to bookings is substantial. So yeah, I don't although I'm sweet, I probably am not as sweet as I am with clients I've known for some time, they don't give them a lot more.
Jenna Love 7:58
Yeah. And we have to reserve the energy we have to spend with our actual clients who are there with us in the body
Holly Harte 8:05
very quick to tell someone to fuck off in no uncertain terms. I'm pretty blunt. Once I feel like they start to fuck me around or I feel like they're just wasting my time.
Jenna Love 8:16
But here's how here's our handy guide, how to not get the fuck off from at least from Holly in general anyway, Okay, number one is screening. So screening is a process that every sex worker undertakes in order to decide whether we want to accept the client who has approached us. And when I say every sex worker, undertake screening, everyone does it in their own way. It may be as simple as just getting a vibe from the way you you wrote or the way that you speak. If you're meeting in person, you know, in a brothel or on the street. It may simply be just sussing you out based on body language and the words that you use, that's probably the most sort of basic screening that we all do, kind of just using our gut, really. And it can go anywhere from that to requiring photo ID, your full legal name, your phone number, your email address, and these days of employment. Yeah, proof of employment, social media links, things like that photograph of you references from other sex workers that you've seen. And now we're also dealing with providers, including myself, who are wanting to see proof of vaccination of COVID-19 vaccinations to,
Holly Harte 9:33
I tend to prefer photo ID it's not something I have done the whole time I've been a sex worker. And that's another thing. A lot of sex workers will change what their screening requirements are during their career. I find that a lot of clients make assumptions on what is appropriate screening, and that's okay, if you come to a provider and you've all of the past providers that you've dealt with have asked for references. You may assume that the next one is going to want references and that's not a problem, but we may Not, we all have different combinations of screening measures that we like to employ. And each worker that you see will let you know or you will find on their website or on their advertising what their screening procedures are. If you do get halfway through the process with a provider, and they tell you that their screening process is something that you're not comfortable with, you're totally fine to back out. If you say to us, I'm sorry, I don't really want to go ahead anymore. That's fine. But do keep in mind that if you do decide to proceed, and you falsify that information, or you mislead us, then there does become an issue with consent. And if we haven't consented to see you, is that really a path you want to go down?
Jenna Love 10:38
I'd say it's always best, if possible, to provide screening information in your initial contact with a sex worker, if possible. So if they haven't written on their website, or on the advertising what screening information they require, then you're best off just putting that in your initial contact. So if they say, oh, what I need to know is your name and number, then you say, Hi, blah, blah, you know, I'd love to make a booking, here's my name and number. If they don't have that information, written anywhere, then of course, you're going to ask, you're going to need to ask what information they require. And that's cool. As Holly said, if you're not comfortable complying with a provider's particular screening requirements, that is absolutely your prerogative. If you don't want to hand over particular information. If you're concerned about your privacy, then that's cool. But then you're going to have to find another provider, it is completely inappropriate for you to expect a provider to change their screening methods to suit your privacy needs. And frankly, it's just not a good look for you to sort of be prioritising your privacy over our safety, because that's what it comes down to. I know there's lots of people out there that go are but I don't want my work to find out. And oh, what about my wife, and I guarantee you, we do not want to tell your wife, we do not want to tell your work. That is not we have no interest in that, that sounds terrible. We don't want to get tangled up in your shit, that is your business. But we need your information in order to keep ourselves safe. And that is all that we're worried about. The only reason we would ever use your information would be if you were to hurt us. So if your intention is not to hurt us, then you don't have anything to worry about. But that being said, if you are still uncomfortable, and you are fearful about what we're going to do with your information, that's absolutely fine. And it's very understandable. I know that there are people out there that have you know, ill intent. But that's where you're probably better off going to a brothel,
Holly Harte 12:38
we don't ask for screening information for no reason. The reason that we asked for the information is for our safety, it is for assurances and to make sure that we have some way of chasing things up if something were to go wrong. When I first started out as a private sex worker, which was six years ago to the day of recording today, Happy anniversary. Now we're going to go on a dark path. My screening procedures were really lacks because I didn't know about how to be a private worker, I had no idea what I didn't think people would comply with screening procedures. So I didn't ask for anything. And I ended up being assaulted. Unfortunately, the amount of recourse that I had in that situation was incredibly limited, because I had very little to provide any authorities week. Since then I know that the laws have gotten a little bit better for that sort of thing. And I know the police are making a stronger effort to stop these sorts of issues. And these sorts of crimes, I can't go into a whole lot of detail about it. But there's a definite stronger push than there was six years ago to follow up on particularly crimes against sex workers. But at the time, my minimal screening procedures meant that I was left vulnerable and that was horrible. Over time, as a result, I have increased my screening procedures clients who come to see me will notice that I have things like security cameras, security doors, I have little procedures that I employ that make me feel safe that I won't even tell you about because that's the whole point. But also now I do request ID from a vast majority of new clients or if not ID certain things that will help me make sure exactly who you are. Even having said that a few months ago, or maybe even a year ago now, one individual falsified his way through my screening procedures, and I believed a certain individuals coming to my home, he turned up on my doorstep and it was not the person that I thought it was. I confronted him and I asked for some sort of ID he handed me his credit card which had an entirely different name to the one that he'd given me. And I unsurprisingly lost my shit at him, told him to jump off and slammed the door in his face. Following on from that I did identify who he was and a lot more personal information about him. And I was just devastated. I was just disgusted by that behaviour. It turns He had contacted me a year or so before I had declined him service. And he basically created this persona to track me down and what to, to have sex with me. without my consent, I don't understand it was revolting. His defence was that he wanted to apologise. But what? When we were naked in the bedroom? I don't know. So look, if you find that a provider is being really tough on her screening procedures, and you think God had nitpicky how fast he had demanding, you've got to understand where we're coming from. It's incredibly, it's not incredibly, it's not inherently dangerous. But it can be dangerous, just as a woman to spend time alone with a male stranger at your home. Like that's just the basics of it. And even if it's not a woman, with a man, or even if it's not alone, or at your home, these are all still elements of risk that we take when you meet a stranger, any sex worker, and any stranger, there's some risk. So it's really important for us to try and maintain some safety in that space.
Jenna Love 16:01
It's not unusual for a potential client to sort of baulk at a lot of screening measures. And I I find it quite quite entertaining. Really, when I've had people sort of say to me, I'll go, Well, you know, I need your full legal name. And they also say, Oh, that's a bit much, isn't it? And I go, sorry, ah, remember how you're wanting to put your dick inside my vagina? Like, that's a bit much, isn't it? Like, like, they think I'm asking for so much. And I'm like, I mean, I'm asking for a reasonable amount, but you're asking to put part of your body inside part of my body, like, Whoa, that's a lot may like sorry, that is a lot. And I just always think I'm not willing to entertain how upset you are about this idea, because it's not my issue, because you can go to a brothel. And you don't have to comply with those sorts of screening measures. Or you can go on Tinder and do it that way. If that's what you know, it's that's not my problem. These are the boundaries that I have. I've outlined them very clearly on my website, and most sex workers have got their screening measures on their advertising. If you're seeing independent, full service sex workers that is, so if you come across something that you go, Oh, she needs me to pay a deposit, or she needs references, and I'm not prepared to do that, then you move on to the next person.
Holly Harte 17:21
I always like to say to particularly new clients who are shocked by the fact that there is any screening procedure at all, at the end of the day, my service is discreet. So I will not be contacting anyone you know, I will not be posting that, you know, Gregory Smith turned up at my house for a booking, but it's not anonymous. It's discreet, but not anonymous. I am not a hole in the wall, I'm a human being. And we're to humans meeting up the least I asked for is your name buddy. Like I
Jenna Love 17:51
wild when people give a false first name. Like back in the day, I used to only ask for a first name. And the amount of people that would say our Michael, and then I get to know them. And then they'd be like, Oh, actually, it's Matthew. And I was like, What? Your name's Matthew, there's 40 Matthews on my streets. Like, why would you like try and cover that up? Especially when all I asked for was a first name. And I was you know, particularly at that time, I was like, Look, I don't care. Really, if you're Michael, if you're Matthew, if you're, you know, upou. Like, what? I don't care what your name is. But why did you make up a fate like that? It was I was always like, Oh, you've just made up another generic white man? Yes. Like, yeah. And I've already forgotten anyway, if you would join or Michael or Justin like, Yeah, I just, I don't know, I don't know why they made it up. I
Holly Harte 18:48
I think a part of it is roleplay. I've definitely had guys be like, my name is Chad Bookington.
Jenna Love 18:53
Holly Harte 18:58
I'm a real estate developer from the North Shore. And I'm like, "Are you or are you just Barry who works at the local fish and chip shop? Because that's fine. I actually I like him more as Barry.
Jenna Love 19:09
Holly Harte 19:09
I don't know if there's an element of roleplay there where they think I'm the sexy mysterious man seeing a provider.
Jenna Love 19:17
So from screening, we can kind of segue into the making a booking. And now it's really really important to follow a worker's instructions for making a booking, I totally get that it might be a bit frustrating because we all have our own way of doing things. But as Holly mentioned, we get so much communication. We have so many people contacting us, a lot of those people or clients. A lot of them are people who just want to tell us that we're awful humans who are ruining the world, but a lot of them are kids are you know, teenagers who just think it's funny that we're huggers. And a lot of them are potential clients who are really excited about the idea but just haven't quite got around to actually you know, the the Don't actually ever get to pay us, they just think it's exciting and, or whatever, who knows. So we get a lot of messages. And if you don't sort of follow our instructions for making a booking, it's entirely possible you will get ignored, you might get rejected without ever even hearing back from the worker, you know, there's a lot of messages that I automatically just do not respond to. And some of the and I accept that by doing that I may be turning down potential clients who could be wonderful clients. But that's just the way I have to run my business. I'm, you know, in lieu of hiring an assistant, that's just what I have to do. So you could be the most wonderful client ever, and you're shooting yourself in the foot because you're not following our instructions.
Holly Harte 20:43
I'm not a real stickler for how I'm contacted, I am pretty flexible. But if you contact me with Hey, or avail one, one word, or even Are you available, that says to me, I give a fuck, I've sent out 20 messages to 20 different workers, I really don't have any respect for you as a human being. I just don't want to spend that doesn't make me horny. That doesn't excite me in the least. It also says to me that you haven't read my advertising because my advertising makes it very clear that I always book at least 24 hours in advance. Because if I have to, if I get a booking request at shorter notice, then that I'm scrambled, and I can't get my shit together. I need 24 hours notice to get myself organised. But also I tend to be booked in advance I sound like such away code or Command trip booked in a batch. But it just gives me time to organise my life and have a comfortable shedule a comfortable life and a comfortable routine about my life. So all I asked for for me is like, Hey, how are you? I'd like to make a booking for x, y, Zed, here's my name. Let's see, we'll get to the details. I'll ask you if I need them. But just make the initial contact one that's showing you are interested in making a booking, I don't need to hear, hey, you're so hard. Hi, my name is blah, blah, blah, and I'm this old with this colour hair and this size. And this ethnicity. It's a call like,
Jenna Love 21:57
that's Oh my god, do not tell us that you're white. So
Holly Harte 22:00
tell us your white,
Jenna Love 22:01
I don't care that you're white. And we'll have to add the white tags. Once we're here, you're just going to cost you more
Holly Harte 22:07
Yeah, it's just I don't want to hear it. Like I want to know all about you once you've booked and I feel like we have a connection, we have some sort of commitment to a relationship developing. When you're just another number in my inbox. I don't know I'm not gonna waste my time. I'm not gonna invest my my energy into that.
Jenna Love 22:24
So on the one hand, yeah, just saying hey, or Hi, terrible idea. Very, very bad idea. If only for your own sake, you're gonna get ignored by most workers. On the other hand, sending multiple paragraphs is also not.
Holly Harte 22:42
Don't send me and I've had a few
Jenna Love 22:43
of those. Yeah, and look, I mean, I don't know, I'd probably prefer that to just apply or a, Hey, I got I don't need to know your life story. You don't have to explain why you're coming to see a sex worker. You don't need, you know, all we need is one paragraph basically, that says, Hi, my name is this, you know, my numbers this or what? Blah, blah, blah. I saw your ad here. I'd love to spend some time with you. Would this time suit you? Or could I do this? I'd like an outcalls that run in court. Like, honestly, as simple as that. Just a paragraph or two is perfect. I don't mind personally, if they say why I've had clients say, Oh, my wife passed away a few months ago or, you know, I haven't had sex in over five
Holly Harte 23:27
years. And oh, I agree. But I shouldn't take four paragraphs. Exactly. Yeah, no, I'm totally with you. Yeah, it's when they start to go. And I really like this when this happens. And now dream of going with you. I don't need that, you know, on our first contact.
Jenna Love 23:41
If ever Yeah, no. I mean, as you said, let's have that conversation in person. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you're just and like, I've had a couple of clients who have sent me massive novels. And it has made me a bit freaked out to see them and every single time they've turned out to be wonderful, and I've really enjoyed my time with them. But I have to be honest and say that when I read that email, I go, Oh, god, what is this person going to be obsessive? Are they going to be because it's really really full on and it just comes back to that would you send your dentist that email to set up a time for a filling? Because I don't think you would
Holly Harte 24:19
I have definitely declined a few inquiries that were just too novelty for me. And I've said like I'm so sorry, but I feel like your expectations might be a little bit higher than what I can provide. It's it just feels like overwhelming. And I probably could I probably would be a great provider for them. But it just psychs me out and I think this person needs more than I can give them and it just kills it before it even begins. So that's
Jenna Love 24:40
Yes. Along the same lines contact between you and the provider before the booking should really be kept to a minimum and it honestly should take a maximum of three to four messages back and forth in my opinion. So you know, you request a time, the provider might accept that or they might suggest an order tentative, they'll give you instructions on paying a deposit. If they take deposits, you'll pay the deposit. And then they'll send you the information that you need to attend to the booking. And that that's that's all that is required, you know, a question or two in there about the booking is okay. And of course it depends on if they don't have anything listed about what they offer, then you may need to ask questions about that. But most of us have a lot of that stuff up there, we've spent a lot of time trying to get our advertising right and trying to put that information out there. So you really want to keep that that dialogue between the two of you before the booking to a minimum, you know, it's not, again, we're not courting, we're not dating, we don't have to have that build up. Of course, if you are looking for the build up, and you are looking for either sexting or just some some stuff to get you thinking about the booking, or whatever it is, there's a lot of providers out there who do offer texting or phone call packages. So you could consider asking if they offer something like that.
Holly Harte 25:57
I had an individual this week who I immediately got the time waster flags in my head about I requested a deposit for the booking that he was discussing with me immediately. 93 Fantasy messages followed in the coming days, which I responded to very sparsely and very short in nature retorts for me until the point where I said if I receive any more of these sorts of messages, I will be cancelling the booking and not returning your deposit. Of course, he behaved himself and then on the day of the booking he contacted me to cancel the booking anyway so I don't know he win some you lose. Some people then say things like, Oh, well, you got the free deposit, you got free money. Well, look, I took $100 deposit and to read those 93 messages probably cost me so much time that that was it worth it. I don't know anyway,
Jenna Love 26:51
and I've got is always write it off. Not Not always,
Holly Harte 26:55
but get a good sense of these things. And so I'm glad I took the deposit from him. But yeah, if once you start to play silly buggers and text is too much and the lead up to the booking, we start to go, Oh, here we go. Okay, we get a very quick suspicion, yeah,
Jenna Love 27:10
something that happens where I think they're not trying to waste our time, they're being 100% legitimate, but they are just so excited about the booking. And it can really, you know, especially if they're newer to it, making that booking can be a really big step. It can be a large investment for them financially as well as emotionally. And so all they do, all they're doing is thinking about the booking, it's completely monopolising their brain. And that like, that's great. And once we're together, we are going to make that the best hour or the best two hours or whatever it is that you've had in a long time. That's, that's what you've hired us for. But you have to keep in mind that we've got a whole lot of other shit going on in that time, we've got a bunch of other clients that we're communicating with, we've got actual bookings that we need to be in and giving our full attention to those clients. And so one of the things I asked people to do is to like, either keep a Notes app on their phone, or whatever, and jot down any thoughts they have, and then maybe, you know, the day before or a week before the booking or whatever, send through one email with all of their sort of requests or suggestions. If the provider is somebody who is comfortable taking requests, because I have clients who they'll book, you know, in a month's time, and in the lead up to that I will have Twitter, DMS I'll have Instagram, DMS, I have text messages and emails all on various days one saying Oh, can you wear this yellow thing? And then you know, a few days later, can you weather the leather this with that thing? And I've been thinking about our date? Can we do this like and there were just messages on all different platforms. And I'm like, which What do you want me to wear because you've sent me 14 different outfit requests over time. And if you could just jot it down, and then the day before say write, I would like you to wear this, I would like to do that I would like blah, blah, blah, then that's awesome. I can take all of that into consideration. And I can accommodate as much as as much as I can.
Holly Harte 29:06
We get you're excited. And we're excited too. But we are also trying to manage, as Jenna said, messaging, seeing other clients doing our social media, possibly recording a very successful podcast, things like that. So you know, we're busy. Oh, and I guess we have personal lives that we try to jam in there as well. Just to swing back to the topic of telling us your nationality or your marks or your age in the initial message. It's a little bit of a delicate thing I understand some people want to give us an idea of who they're saying. But also sometimes it comes off as a little bit privileged or a little bit even racist or ageist or, you know, there can be a whole lot of issues with that. So one that a lot of providers hate is I'm white, there is implied racism in that which is that we wouldn't want to see you if you were not white or that it's somehow better than seeing somebody who's not white, which I can tell you Makes no difference. It really doesn't matter, that and by you saying that it immediately marks you as the sort of person who maybe we're just not going to get along with we think, oh god, you're obviously politically aligned with me or ethically or you don't have empathy or you're racist. I don't know how to how to articulate it, but it just gives me that gut feeling that you're a bit of a yucky person to be honest. Yeah,
Jenna Love 30:21
well, it's hard to understand why it often comes with fit. And young. Yeah, they often say I'm why I'm fit, I'm young. And to me, I go, I cannot think of a reason why you would give me those descriptors, unless you think that those things are going to make me more likely to accept a booking from you. And if you if that's what you think, then you are very misguided about the sex industry. And you kind of sound like an entitled asshole. Frankly, you you probably aren't one. But that's what's coming across.
Holly Harte 30:55
Yeah, it's incredibly ignorant, not just of the sex industry, but of what makes people attractive in general. And I just don't have time for it. And I, the general consensus across the industry, once again, not speaking for everyone, but it is a very common vibe that no one seems to get really excited about those sorts of messages. I'm a young fit white guy,
Jenna Love 31:14
ethics. And it's not unusual for those same people to pull the DND free or clean, which is a bit which First of all, like, if somebody just states d&d, I think it's like drug and disease free, which is I mean, first of all, like, are you not on any depressants? Because it's 2021. So
Holly Harte 31:37
that's raw jogging reality, what?
Jenna Love 31:42
But like anybody who just emphatically states, I have no disease? I'm like, really? Because I don't know if I have no disease? I don't have any that I'm aware of. But, you know, that just shows that probably, they probably know very little about sexual health, they probably never get tested. And I don't know why they're telling me that they don't have any infections, unless they're wanting to try to have unprotected sex with me. So Why else do you bring it like it raises a red flag for us,
Holly Harte 32:15
we generally aren't into receiving a photo of you. If you're trying to sell us on having a booking with you, or trying to promote what a great client you'll be. We don't need a photo to know that that's okay. You know, it's not, it's not a dating situation. What's more important to us is your communication and your kindness and your compliance with our requests. And all of those sorts of things are important a picture of you, it just sort of makes me feel like I'm crying. You're sort of misreading what this situation is. I get that it's usually innocent. I get that you're trying to say, well, you I've seen pictures of you online, and he is me. But just don't hate it. It doesn't offend me, but I don't find it necessary.
Jenna Love 32:56
I hate it. I have been known to cancel bookings, because somebody sent me a photo. And I'm like, oh, why don't you send me a photo? I don't know. To be fair, that's if it's, you know, explicit or photo in particular. But no, I think it's it starts us off on a really, really bad foot. Why are you sending me a photo of yourself? What? We are not dating. I don't know how to tell you that any stronger - we're not dating. I don't want a photograph. And that being said, some sex workers do request a photograph as part of their screening. And in that case, obviously, it's fine. But when I haven't asked, I'm like, why are you sending me pictures? I'm not swiping on you.
Holly Harte 33:38
Like you said, Would you send a picture to your dentist? Hi, I really need a teeth clean. I think I need a filling at the moment. Here's me!
Jenna Love 33:46
Yeah, just so you know who you're dealing with. The one thing I love is just so you know, I'm a real person. And I'm like, Well, for starters, are you what else would you have been? I mean, you're probably not a donkey. Like, presumably You are a real person. And second of all, a random photo of a dude on a beach doesn't prove anything. Like how is that proving that you're a real person? I don't know what I just don't know why you're sending me photos.
Holly Harte 34:13
I request that you will hear a lot of sex workers complain about is the first of the day concept, the first of the day request, particularly from new clients, or I think clients who haven't had a lot of experience within the industry or sorry, scene providers. They sometimes request that they can be our first client of the day, possibly from a perceived purity thing or an energy based being or I don't know that we become virgins again overnight. Is that the common joke within the industry. And obviously there are a number of reasons why this is offensive, but also probably not the best way to approach things with a sex worker, and also probably not going to be your best outcome. For me. All it does when somebody asks me that is makes me roll my eyes. eyes, and I usually only see one client maximum two clients per day anyway. And if I do see two clients, it's usually because one of those bookings are non sexual in nature. So it doesn't really fucking matter. And if you ask me that it disincentivizes me telling you the truth anyway, I feel like going will fuck you. We're gonna see someone before you, just because it's such an outdated and that sounds so unethical. But if you think that that pays off. Basically, I think the root causes of why you would ask for that are so misguided that I just don't even want to entertain it as a thought.
Jenna Love 35:35
Yeah, I can't tell you how many sex workers have said, Oh, I don't mind when people ask me that. Because when somebody asks to be my first client of the day, I say, yeah, no worries. And then I just make sure that my boyfriend and I have sex that morning, and that he comes in me, obviously, Holly, and I can't do that, because Holly doesn't have a partner. And I don't have sex without condoms. But I guarantee you, there are workers out there that will do that. And I don't blame them. But I've heard it just Yeah, like, Oh, that's a really homophobic point of view. Another like, I think another reason people ask for that is because they think that you will have more energy and that you won't be tired, you know, by the end of the day, and I can understand where people are coming from. But I think it's important to respect us as business owners, and trust that we are aware of our limits, and how many people we are able to see in a day, and trust that we are going to give the same energy and the same experience to everybody that we see. In my case, I'm similar to you, Holly, when I'm at home, I usually only see one or maybe two people a day anyway, when I want to, I find my last client of the day, pretty much gets the best of me. Because on the one hand, I've got in my mind, this is my last booking for the day. And after this, I get to go to sleep or have a bath and then go to sleep. And on the other hand, I'm so fucking sexed up because I have been having sex all fucking day, I've probably been wanking. In between the bookings, I've had an absurd amount of orgasms, there was no sense in keeping track after 11am. And I'm just so horny, I'm squirting all over the place. I've got all these memories of all this sex that I've been having. And I'm much more likely to be a bit more flexible with time, because I don't have somebody coming straight afterwards. I think it's funny that there are people for whom the idea of going at the end of the day with a sex worker grosses them out or whatever. And I think they are missing out, because I think my clients should come see me at the end of the day, and get get over Well, I mean, I think all of my clients got a great time. But, you know, there's, there's something to be said, for a plus in the morning, I'm like, Oh, you want to have sex
Holly Harte 37:45
off morning. All right, having come to visit you while you're on tour, to do doubles with you, on numerous occasions, I can attest to that. You have not been lacking in any energy, enthusiasm, bubbliness. And then I usually stuffed around and make you stay up for ages after. So if I have that, I'm sure that you probably do that with the split mode, only the most special gentlemen who engage you in that in that arena. But yeah, it's just a completely unfounded belief that somehow you're getting less if you see a sex worker later, doesn't make
Jenna Love 38:20
sense. And I've got to say, if the idea of being with somebody who has been intimate with someone else before you, isn't appealing to you, then I think you probably shouldn't be fucking horse, a great variable set,
Holly Harte 38:36
I need a bumper sticker of that.
Jenna Love 38:40
So these days, I think you'll find a lot of sex workers, particularly independent sex workers, require clients to pay a deposit in order to secure their booking. And particularly so for two bookings where there's a much higher outlay of costs, particularly for outcalls, where they're the provider is going to be travelling to the client. And also for a lot of workers who hire their incalls space. So a lot of workers will offer incalls. But but they won't be at their own residence, they will have to hire a hotel, for you to be able to come see them at that hotel. So they're having to outlay that cost in this industry, we do encounter a lot of time wasters, we get a lot of people who make bookings, and then just don't show up. And sometimes this is people who have just gotten cold feet, it's people who just don't care. It can also be people who are wishing ill on us, and they want us to set aside that time and then be disappointed and then not be able to fail, you know, they they're effectively kind of stealing from us in a sense and that that is a thing that happens which is incredibly disappointing. So as a result, a lot of us do insist on deposits. And deposits can be used as a screening method as well. I certainly use them in that sense because I want to know if the person I'm talking to To is serious about making a booking, and that's a great way for me to, to confirm that. So like all of the other screening methods, if you're not comfortable paying a deposit, that's totally fine. But it also means that you should not enquire with any providers that say that they require deposits. So I'm very upfront about needing one and then I've had clients contact me, and then I'd be like, Okay, cool. Well, here are the deposit details, and they've gone all, I don't pay deposits. And I'm like, so why did you contact me? Like, that's fine. You don't have to pay deposits, you can do whatever you want with your life. But I don't know why you contacted somebody who has clearly outlined their boundaries, and then you intended to subvert them, in order for you to have sex with that person, why would you think that that's a good idea, I'm obviously not going to be comfortable being alone in a room with you. If that's how you view my boundaries,
Holly Harte 40:54
I don't tend to take deposits in general, I feel like my screening measures as they are, are enough for me to mitigate risk. And particularly because I don't tour it's not something that I felt a lot of need to take deposits in my situation. But if somebody is stuffing me around, or I get those red flags, or if it's some different circumstances for the booking, then I'll ask for one. And that's, you know, they're more than welcome to say, no, sorry, I'm going to find someone else, that's fine. If I asked for a deposit, and you say, No, I'm not going to entertain the thought of a booking without that deposit. That's the bottom line. Obviously, we have a number of ways that workers can accept deposits here in Australia, we have a few different options, I'm not going to go into all of them now. But if one of those methods of making a deposit doesn't work for you, there probably is one that will work, even if it comes down to needing to be something that takes a few days to process. And you just have to be organised and book in advance. These are the things that you need to work out for yourself as a client in terms of discretion, and risk management and what you think is sensible for your circumstances. Someone's method, who I really love is Amanda Valentina, who we always hype up on here, she has that thing, I think it's 20 minutes or something. When someone has been texting her, she says, here's my deposit information. If it's not in there within 20 minutes, then we don't have a booking basically. And that's it, that person, if you've inquired, and you started that booking process, you've got that limited time to show show your commitment to commit to that, and lock it in. Otherwise, she doesn't waste a time with you anymore. And I think that's really cool for her doesn't work for me, because I have a real slow burn sort of things, talks with my, my processes, and everyone has different systems. But yeah, there are some people who just won't invest any time in, you know, potential nonsense. And they'll make sure that they have that assurance as soon as possible.
Jenna Love 42:38
It's important to keep in mind the financial discrimination that sex workers do face. And for that reason, even though most of us will have multiple different options for paying deposits, or for paying even the total of your booking fee, we are quite limited with what we can do. And for instance, we've talked before about how much PayPal discriminates against sex workers. And you know, it's not uncommon for me to have clients who say, Oh, can I just pay with PayPal? And it's like, No, you can't just pay me with PayPal, because PayPal hates sex workers, and they will take my money. And so I think sometimes people think maybe that we're, that we're being difficult. And one of the apps that we use in Australia a lot is be met, which is an app that was created alongside you know, the big four banks, it is secure, it's trustworthy, it's instant, it's anonymous, but people who haven't heard of it, I think, maybe think I'm trying to do some scammy thing by saying, if you just download this app, but it's because it is the best way of doing it.
Holly Harte 43:37
I've been doing this a long time, I'm well aware of every single company that discriminates against sex workers. And so the ones that I suggest and the methods that I suggest to you are the ones that are most appropriate for you. And for me, we think that we've given you probably a little bit beyond just our tips today, and we're starting to get up towards the shaft. So we think this is probably a good spot to wrap it up. Thanks for sticking around and listening to us and getting a little bit of an insight into what our behind the scenes processes are as escorts, and what we sort of deal with, and how are the best ways to approach and deal with a sex worker that you're looking to spend time with.
Jenna Love 44:15
We're hoping to continue the just the tip series, we have a lot more tips for clients of full service sex workers. We're hoping to eventually give tips to people who are sex workers or who are wanting to become sex workers, potentially tips to people in other industries for dealing with sex workers, and all sorts of bits and pieces. So hopefully this new style of episode is well received. We are going to continue also doing episodes like all the ones that we've done in the past, but we just wanted to mix it up a little bit. And yeah, try some some new stuff out.
Holly Harte 44:54
We'd like to thank our spectacular glowing, shiny, amazing patrons again this week, as always, We are so grateful for your support it really does allow us to grow the show and and hopefully expand in future and make it even more enjoyable. This week we have a new giving somebody some a choice. We have a new generous somebody Martin, our new very generous somebody is grettir
Jenna Love 45:18
are even more generous somebodies. Timmy Andrew Adam Smith, Leo Laughlin, sub London, Miss Bailey nor Knightley Leslie Scott Watson, Andrew big M. Our secret admirer Maji Margaret weezy, john T. Celeste, Ellen and Liam,
Holly Harte 45:41
thank you to our extremely generous somebodies. Aaron Samuel, Andrew Pete. Theodore Betts, the first Esquire, Amanda Valentina Sienna, St. breno and Adam more.
Jenna Love 45:55
Thank you for listening. See you next time on Yeah. Please look out for us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Patreon. Our name everywhere is somebody you pod, as in podcast. Our Patreon started just $3 a month, and you can get all of our episodes ad free and a day early, plus bonus episodes behind the scenes action, bloopers and more. Thank you for taking the time to listen to the voices of sex workers. And remember, Somebody You Love might just be a sex worker.